Women and their role in trans right activism

[DJLippy]

Trans right activism is often framed as a men's right movement. For the following reasons:

• Removing women's sexed based rights

• Erasing the language needed for women to talk about their biology

• Attacking women who disagree with it's aims with violent and sexualised language

All this is true but in framing this as a 'penis cult' and laying the blame with men (as a class) do we erase the significant contribution that females (no matter how they identify) have made to this movement? These individuals hold significant roles in organisations front and center of the movement.

• Susie Green (Mermaids)
• Ruth Hunt and Nancy Kelley (Stonewall)
• James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
• Stephen Whittle (Press for Change)

There are a number of other women who support the movement who I will not name for fear that this thread will be deleted.

On a personal level, for every bearded 'woke bloke' I have argued with online, I have had 'run ins' with just as many women. Often the mobbing I receive is more extreme in 'women only' spaces like the Atheist feminists. They even use violent and sexualised threats similar to those from their male counterparts. I am sure that women on this board have faced similar interactions.

I know the traditional explanation is that these women are 'handmaids of the patriarchy.' They throw women under the bus to preserve their own position within the system of male dominance and protect themselves from abuse. For example, FGM is carried out and supported in many cases by women.

However, in men's right activist circles these women, more often than not act as 'tokens' and are not given positions of structural power. I don't think the same can be said of this particular movement.

Do we need a more nuanced analysis of how women work to support the patriarchy or is this movement different from other forms of male dominance? I see many women who seem to work with equal determination to erode their sexes legal rights. Does framing this battle as as 'men vs women' undermine our efforts to truly understand what is happening?

I am not being goady. I genuinely want a discussion about the role of women in the trans right activist movement. I also want to reflect more broadly on how women work to maintain systems of power which benefit men. I think that this is important if we want to move forward and understand what is going on.

Thoughts?

[DonkeySkin]

that's perhaps why the female gender identity crowd always go on about their 'trans sisters' - it is the eroticisation of sibling equality, and it may explain some of the dynamics we see in heterosexual marriages in which the male partner transitions.

Absolutely, clownfish. The thing is though, that while women are hoping for sibling equality, what they are getting is more male dominance (just as in the free-love movement of the 60s.)

That's why I think it's important that we direct our arguments towards exposing this dynamic, rather than going down the dead-end of arguing about whether men can really be women, or whether intersex disproves the sex binary, etc.

Instead of saying, 'Humans cannot change sex, that's just SCIENCE!' (they already know that)

Or: 'Self ID will expose women and girls to predators '(they know that too, but they think trans are a more vulnerable group and their needs are more pressing - also, why are you calling trans people predators? How hateful)

Try asking: Why don't these men, who you call 'sisters', seem to care if their demands make the world less safe and equal for women and girls? Why do they insist that our needs must always be subordinate to theirs? Why do they have so little empathy for women - the group they claim to 'identify' as?

These sorts of questions will probably have little effect on hardcore TRA supporters. But for the women who are casual supporters, who are going along with it to 'be kind' and because they truly do believe that the interests of women and men who identify as women are aligned, I think they can plant a seed, help them to see the sexual power dynamics that they likely have already subconsciously sensed, but lack the language to articulate.

How can we repair the deep chasms that have opened up between us and women we once trusted? Of course women can be crap human beings but it's often good friends and family that we fall out with over this issue. That's why it's important to understand where they are coming from and to try and be kind - really kind, not performative kind. But maybe I'm being naive now.

I don't think these questions are naive. They're crucial, in fact. I hate the acrimony that has arisen between women over this. We need to find a way to have better conversations with other women that don't devolve into a shit-fight over whether 'transwomen are women'.

Our overriding problem (apart from the massive censorship around this issue, of course) is that we are having the wrong arguments. It's important, when talking to pro-TRA women, to tackle what they really believe (women and feminine-presenting men share a basic condition under patriarchy, they identify with women and we are part of the same struggle), rather than what they purport to believe (sex isn't real or meaningful because clownfish/intersex/hysterectomies).

[Milotic]

@dayoftheclownfish
@PhoenixBuchanan
Thankyou x

[Milotic]

@HH160bpm oops meant to tag HH xx

[SapphosRock]

Really interesting thread.

My DW is a huge trans ally and it's not about being a handmaiden to the patriarchy - she's a lesbian and feminist so that label doesn't fit.

She just wholeheartedly believes TWAW and TMAM. Therefore will fight for trans rights as the believes she is supporting her fellow women.

She is also upset by the high suicide rate in the trans community and often tells me that many don't make it past their 50s. She thinks in general they are more deserving of compassion and have things much harder time than women do.

[Milotic]

Another thought: that's perhaps why the female gender identity crowd always go on about their 'trans sisters' - it is the eroticisation of sibling equality, and it may explain some of the dynamics we see in heterosexual marriages in which the male partner transitions.

It's because these men, the abusive trans identifying agp ones (not all trans people) are damaged.

Sometimes in the most horrific, heartbreaking stomach turning ways.

My ex has about 5 personalities. You can gree with menorah not but this is how I saw them. He switches like me. The male and female are the main two. And he can only do the extremes of those. Male is hyper masculine. Female is what he thinks is hyper feminine but actually isnt I'm hyper feminine when I'm manic or dissociative. Hes just behaving like a crackhead.

Then theres 3 others. Two are children.

It's those that draw you in.

I genuinely believe the ones like my ex are suffering with an identity disorder. I do. And I KNOW that if I were encouraged I'd be behaving in exactly the same way as their equivalent behaviour at present (teenage, egocentrical, knee jerking, demanding).

The things that happened to my ex that caused this are horrific. They would make any mother cry and want to hug their children. I have nightmares knowing what those two little boys went through, but with my own children in their place.

This is deliberate I think. If not conscious then its learned from growing up around manipulative people and they subconsciously know they get a good response.

It's the injured abused child inside you're defending. In my head. It wasnt the same as defending a grown man's shitty behaviour. I was defending the child that was damaged so badly it made him this way.

You get SO involved and angry about the injustice of what's happened to that. You think about the child a LOT and the emotions get tied to the adult they now are.

Until you separate that its VERY difficult to see what you're doing defending them as wrong.

To me, not defending him eventually felt as wrong as if I didnt defend or believe my own children.

[Milotic]

You can agree with me or not on the personalities, that should say. But it's how I see it and process it with my own identity issues.

[Goosefoot]

I really hate the term handmaidens. Sure, there are some women (and men) who go along with things to keep themselves in with those in power, this applies to all kinds of situations. But there is a tendency to dismiss any woman who takes a view seen as non-feminist and dismiss her as a handmaiden. As if people can't legitimately come to different conclusions about subjects that feminists talk about.

I do think that age plays something of a factor in this.

But I think to get at the answer for this it's worth looking at the bigger picture of social activism and the kind of academic departments that gender activism seems to be found in. Even progressive political parties general, or progressive groups of other kind, progressive churches, clubs, whatever. A lot of them are female dominated or have a larger % of female representation than average. Women seem to be drawn to these causes, and the kind of discourse you find in them.

[Goosefoot]

I think many women see in gender identity theory 'an eroticization of sibling equality' and 'a way of being less female in a world less male'. It's an appealing vision of a world in which sexual power dynamics are totally recreated and transformed. No wonder young women are drawn to it.

That's very interesting, and I can see that does appeal to young women. I remember being in jr high or high school and thinking something like that.

As a middle aged woman though, I would reject that idea, not just as something I don't think is possible, but it seems very unappealing now. I don't want to live in a world where women are less female or men less male, I want woman and men to be happy as women and men. Wanting to be less female seems rather anti-woman, even. I certainly don't want my romantic/sexual relationships to be some sort of eroticisation of a sibling relationship, because that seems deeply un-erotic to me.

I wonder if part of the reason for younger women feeling that way isn't just a sort of utopian desire, but is also about an immature way of relating sexually more generally?

[HarryHarry]

@KylieKoKo I’m not sure. A friend of mine actually said that she thinks trans women’s feelings/comfort/security/privacy/dignity is more important than women’s, because they are more vulnerable and more oppressed than us. This friend considers herself a feminist but how can she can be if she thinks like that?!

[HarryHarry]

Do you think this is another example of the “Cool Girl” stereotype? I came across this excerpt from Gone Girl:

“And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They're not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they're pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be [...] basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn't ever complain”.

“Go ahead, shit on me, I don't mind, I'm the Cool Girl”.

[DancelikeEmmaGoldman]

There’s an excellent discussion of this topic on Meghan Murphy’s The Same Drugs podcast.

Because women in some countries have the rights women have fought for, its much harder for young women to see the fault lines. If you’re young and attractive and well-educated, things like domestic violence or homelessness in older women or the enormous inequities women experience in pregnancy and caring for children, might seem very distant and distinctly unsexy.

But if you’re young and think of yourself as an activist and feminist, the trans-rights cause is a perfection intersection of female socialisation and popular culture.

You can’t really blame women for throwing in their lot with the dominant power structures - it might seem a safer space. There’s a very long history of women policing women on behalf of men - women performing female genital mutilation is a horrific example.

There’s good reason why TRAs make an effort to dismiss older feminists and drive a bus between GC feminists and their female supporters.

I loved this video from Twitter. I don’t know that the young women who have bought into the most-oppressed narrative will listen though.

mobile.twitter.com/JenniferAnne_s/status/1276520190927396869

Listen to MK Fain on trashing and infighting in feminism from The Same Drugs on Apple Podcasts. podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-same-drugs/id1504029211?i=1000479961471

[bettybeans]

"But if you’re young and think of yourself as an activist and feminist, the trans-rights cause is a perfect intersection of female socialisation and popular culture."

Bingo. It's easy for a woman, and it's safe.

[xxyzz]

Such an interesting thread.

I don't think woke women all have the same reasons for their views.

I think among young women I know, it's down to 3 things:

1. Many have trans friends of their own age, usually young transmen, who are largely quite damaged and vulnerable, often autistic. So not to stand with them in their suffering would seem unkind. They have no contact with older AGPs so their image when they think of trans rights is totally different to mine.

1. Be kind is deeply felt. And being kind is not a bad impulse. Just they aren't yet aware that sometimes being kind is not the right response to people who are anything but kind to you in return. Sometimes you have to be tough to protect yourself. But they haven't learnt that yet.

Pomo - they have spent their whole lives being told everything is relative and there is no truth, to the extent they literally cannot get their heads round biological facts being fixed and not mutable.

I am less tolerant of it among older women. Among older women, I think it is so down to 3 things:

1. Stupidity and/or lack of critical engagement with women's rights. The middle-aged woman I know who goes on all the time about trans rights is really stupid (fail your degree level of stupid) and woke in the wrongest, most stupid ways.

1. Greed and personal ambition - the Ruth Hunts of this world.

1. Cowardice. This is the only one I have some sympathy with. If they feel threatened, it may be easier to back down. That at least is understandable.

[Helmetbymidnight]

oh im very glad to see this thread - ive been thinking about it a lot-

yes. re not being limitations of sexed bodies- ive been watching a lot of ya films with dd lately- divergent, tomb raider, wonder woman, hunger games- all these feature women beating up men all over the place - in a way that um isnt possible in real life.

ime- women who are most pro removing womens rights are:
the mothers or close friends of transkids.
gay women who identify with trans being oppressed/outsider.
women who like woo- reject science/facts.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Milotic, the impulse to protect someone you see as vulnerable is strong, especially in those with female socialisation.

Regarding the points on activism, I think that's really important! An interesting thread on twitter about this: twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1278076432661360641

There are now universities that offer degrees in activism, that surely tells you something. Activism has been de-fanged, professionalised, made safe for corporations and also governments. How else to we explain the lucrative grants that flow from the UK government to various 'charities' that are really political lobbying groups, such as Stonewall?

Trans activism is safe & approved. No risks, easy wins (or so it seems in the 'this will only affect a tiny minority' narrative). Good feelings guaranteed. Appealing aesthetics.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Helmet, funny that you should mention Tomb Raider, it was seeing feminine, dainty Alicia Vikander in the latest film that made me think 'really - how can she possibly hand on to a moving plane with these tiny arms??'. It's just make believe.

[risefromyourgrave]

I would hazard a guess that for any female on social media, especially Instagram, it’s all about validation. Saying something nice about transgender people = instant likes/comments/shares = instant gratification.
The average age of people on Instagram is low enough so that the females have not yet experienced (or maybe ‘realised’ is a better word) most of the ‘bad side’ of patriarchy. So far they have youth and beauty on their side, eventually for the majority of them they will realise that once a man doesn’t want to sleep with them (as a younger woman has come along) he will stop pretend to be interested in what she has to say. (Cynical? Me?)