Women and their role in trans right activism

[DJLippy]

Trans right activism is often framed as a men's right movement. For the following reasons:

• Removing women's sexed based rights

• Erasing the language needed for women to talk about their biology

• Attacking women who disagree with it's aims with violent and sexualised language

All this is true but in framing this as a 'penis cult' and laying the blame with men (as a class) do we erase the significant contribution that females (no matter how they identify) have made to this movement? These individuals hold significant roles in organisations front and center of the movement.

• Susie Green (Mermaids)
• Ruth Hunt and Nancy Kelley (Stonewall)
• James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
• Stephen Whittle (Press for Change)

There are a number of other women who support the movement who I will not name for fear that this thread will be deleted.

On a personal level, for every bearded 'woke bloke' I have argued with online, I have had 'run ins' with just as many women. Often the mobbing I receive is more extreme in 'women only' spaces like the Atheist feminists. They even use violent and sexualised threats similar to those from their male counterparts. I am sure that women on this board have faced similar interactions.

I know the traditional explanation is that these women are 'handmaids of the patriarchy.' They throw women under the bus to preserve their own position within the system of male dominance and protect themselves from abuse. For example, FGM is carried out and supported in many cases by women.

However, in men's right activist circles these women, more often than not act as 'tokens' and are not given positions of structural power. I don't think the same can be said of this particular movement.

Do we need a more nuanced analysis of how women work to support the patriarchy or is this movement different from other forms of male dominance? I see many women who seem to work with equal determination to erode their sexes legal rights. Does framing this battle as as 'men vs women' undermine our efforts to truly understand what is happening?

I am not being goady. I genuinely want a discussion about the role of women in the trans right activist movement. I also want to reflect more broadly on how women work to maintain systems of power which benefit men. I think that this is important if we want to move forward and understand what is going on.

Thoughts?

[TehBewilderness]

Did you think homophobia was an exclusively male character flaw?

[NotTerfNorCis]

Genderism is cult-like in that it won't tolerate any dissent and it makes its believers feel both persecuted and special. That kind of emotive thinking can appeal to women as well as men.

[SameOldBS]

@CuntAmongstThePigeons " Is there a self protection mechanism to not accept how much society hates women which along with the female socialization of always looking out for everyone else first means young women struggle to see/accept the ways in which trans activists demands will disadvantage women's rights?"

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I was discussing this with DH the other day, and I said to him that the trouble with these women is that they are completely naive and don't really understand what many men are like. DH completely agreed.

[HH160bpm]

Could also be laziness - retweet, sending thoughts and prayers, OMG that’s terrible. Herd mentality. Internet algorithms feed you what you look at. If you only vaguely interact with issues you won’t see much of the opposing views. It’s not working for the movement but it is also not protesting it.

Climate change used to be fringe. Scoffed at, ignored, considered to be the home of tin foil hat wearing odd balls by the vast majority. Times change. The movement has not, the facts have not, it’s public acceptance and interest that has changed the narrative.

Our job is harder, because it’s not just LOOK AT THIS BAD THING, it’s saying um those carefully curated images and stories that made you feel very sorry for people, well it’s part of this thing, yes I know it seems perfectly reasonable, bear with me, doing these things that don’t initially seem terrible actually results in the fundamental dismantling of safeguarding and sex based rights. Ideally without frothing at the mouth yelling that bearded guy could be bathing your mum.

[SameOldBS]

I agree with so many of the points, especially @dayoftheclownfish. I've also pondered a lot about the middle-aged women jumping on the TWAW, who are old and experienced enough to know better. I've come to the conclusion that many of them are too lazy, too scared or too stupid to fully engaged their critical thinking skills, plus the rewards for brainlessly saying the 'right' thing are a huge disincentive for thinking straight.

[NonnyMouse1337]

Women are human beings. Therefore they will exhibit the full range of human behaviour. Women can be friendly, kind, cruel, empathetic, vindictive, brave, cunning, manipulative, cooperative, selfish, clever, downright stupid, etc.

I don't think excuses should be made for women, such as internalising patriarchy, they have no choice but to act that way out of self preservation or whatever. It's infantilising and absolves women from taking responsibility for their actions and facing the consequences of their decisions.

Like most people, women are capable of not giving a shit about issues that they know will not directly affect them. Most of the supporters of trans ideology know on some level that they won't have to face the consequences of their performative righteousness. That's why women who support trans privilege activists keep saying things like 'Well I don't mind trans women in toilets with me.' and statements like that. It's entirely self centered. They don't give a flying fuck about how some other woman feels. All they care about is showing off how little it bothers them and because it won't impact them in any way, then it's all good. Their pals are trans and lovely people, dontcha know?

They will never be a woman from a deprived background who ends up in jail. Or a woman who has been severely abused and traumatised and needs a female counsellor. Some have a very naive view of the world and fall for manipulative sob stories without applying any critical thinking.

I don't think it's particularly mysterious as to why women support such an ideology. They either know it won't affect them or they think it won't affect them, and don't care beyond that. With time and experience, some might realise they were wrong and change their minds. Others won't. That's just how human beings roll, unfortunately.

[RhythmoftheEgg]

Saying you don't mind penises in your toilets just buys you a bit of currency with your progressive male pals, I think.

Totally agree that if this whole thing were to blow up tomorrow, it would be the women who come off worse, because it's the women who will be blamed (as mothers) for the transing of children.

[Thinkingabout1t]

Interesting essay on this subject, written last year, by Oxford academic Michael Biggs at
quillette.com/2019/08/01/how-feminism-paved-the-way-for-transgenderism/

I bridled at the goady title 'How feminism paved the way for transgenderism'. I'd have said it was individual women seeing a personal advantage. But then, why Teresa May, with nothing to gain?

When I read "Virtually the entire feminist establishment has embraced transgenderism" I almost yelled "Not true!" out loud. But, come to think of it, all the passionately pro-women (ie gender-critical) groups I can think of have sprung up in response to the current threat...

I know the trans movement works on people's sympathy for those who present themselves as underdogs - and woman are suckers for a sob story. And their piggy-backing on the gay rights movement has won support from liberals who are terrified of being found "on the wrong side of history".

Plus, it's now become dangerous to question the trans ideology. Women and ethical men have lost their jobs, been arrested and faced violence and death threats.

But even so - why have women been so zealous in undermining other women? From Biggs's essay:

Let us list the major players in Britain. Former Prime Minister Theresa May announced that “being trans is not a mental illness.” “As an ardent, passionate feminist,” Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, wants to eliminate sex segregation.
Conservative MP Maria Miller headed the Committee for Women and Equalities, a select committee of the House of Commons, which proposed reforming the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier for people to change their legal sex; she derided critics of this proposal as “women who purport to be feminists.”
Dawn Butler, Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities in the Labour Party, insists that “trans women are women” and arranged for them to enter the party’s all-women’s shortlists for parliamentary seats.
Ruth Hunt transformed Stonewall from a charity that campaigned for homosexual rights to one devoted to transgender rights, even at the expense of lesbians. Mermaids, which advocates for the transgendering of children, is run by Susie Green. Polly Carmichael, director of the NHS Gender Identity Development Service, lowered the age at which puberty-blocking drugs could be administered to children who identify as trans—now disproportionately girls. Katharine Viner is chief executive of the Guardian newspaper which has championed the transgender cause for many years.

Virtually the entire feminist establishment has embraced transgenderism, from celebrated feminist Members of Parliament like Jess Phillips (Labour Party) and Mhairi Black (Scottish National Party) to organizations like the Fawcett Society, Engender (the feminist group funded by the Scottish government), the Women’s Equality Party, and Women’s Aid.
Transgender doctrines are enforced by the burgeoning diversity-industrial complex which was created by feminists and is disproportionately staffed by women.
It was a woman employed as a university Equality Projects Officer who started a petition to transfer a violent transwoman to a women’s prison; the petition was so successful that it persuaded the government to divide prisons by gender identity rather than sex.

The more I read, the more I unwillingly saw his point. It's worth reading the whole essay.

[Thinkingabout1t]

Like most people, women are capable of not giving a shit about issues that they know will not directly affect them. Most of the supporters of trans ideology know on some level that they won't have to face the consequences of their performative righteousness.

I get that. It's true, of course. But so much support for a movement that offers women nothing and has the potential to disrupt every woman's life? It still baffles me.

[NonnyMouse1337]

I get that. It's true, of course. But so much support for a movement that offers women nothing and has the potential to disrupt every woman's life? It still baffles me.

It does offer those women something though. It makes them feel like they are very good people, kind and inclusive and magnanimous. It buys them social currency and approval. It's like making sure your clothes are always in tune with the latest fashion.... Keeping up with social justice trends.

It's easy to say the right things or to be seen as being on the right side. Genuinely trying to be good and fair and sticking to your principles is actually quite hard, and can leave you in the minority. When everyone is blindly going in one direction, it takes a lot of courage to stand or turn the other way and say 'No I won't do that, it's not right.' Most people don't have that kind of courage, even if they know what's going on around them is wrong. The vast majority of cheerleaders and supporters of trans ideology have spent little to no time critically analysing the reasons for their stance. It's an emotive position, not a rational one. Hence the thought terminating slogans. Some are genuine believers and fanatics, but most just go along for the ride as it's easier, seems cooler and promises that you'll be 'on the right side of history'. What's not to like about that?

[TehBewilderness]

Most of the time when they write about feminism they are referring to the commercially packaged sex positive empowerment is better than power feminism created by the backlash.
Certainly women have always known that men will not power share unless they are prioritized. That's what prompted the backlash. That lesson is on display everywhere we look. So ambitious women go along to get along just as they were taught to do and then we are all in the soup.

[PhoenixBuchanan]

I have a friend who has sadly bought into the ideology hook, line and sinker. I'd go so far as to call her a TRA. (We actively avoid this subject!) In addition to being on the left and "progressive", she falls into the category of being exceedingly kind, genuinely a very kind and caring person. I think as the last few years have gone by she has bought into the narrative of the Most Oppressed TM, and she hasn't critically engaged with it at all. It's just Be Kind.

[QuarantineDream]

@dayoftheclownfish "Questioning transgenderism means you have to recognise and accept the limits of our sexed bodies."

This is spot on. I grew up being told I could "be anything" by my mother, never encountered any sexism until my first job and even then it was indirect. It wasn't until I had kids did I accept the 'limit of our sexed bodies' and the impact it's had on my lived experience from digestion/stomach issues every fucking month when I have my period to the absolute wave of infections, low immune system etc I suffered during and after pregnancy.

The idea that someone can put on a fucking dress and claim they've had the same experience as me is not only infuriating it's downright offensive.

[SameOldBS]

@PheonixBuchanan I loathe that kind of toxic niceness. It's almost a competitive sport these days amongst certain kinds of women. I find it really oppressive, and often insincere, used to mask a refusal to engage with certain truths or a fragile sense of self.

[SameOldBS]

@NonnyMouse1337 I agree with every single word. You're right. It's cowardly and simply outsourcing thinking and moral authority to a cultish way of thinking rather than addressing the issue from the ground up. The thought-terminating slogans. Spot on!

[irishfeminist]

When I look at older women in the public eye aggressively promoting TWAW, l think there's also a fear of being "Karen"ed and that if they expressed any caution or criticism, it would speed the journey to irrelevancy that happens to women once they hit 40. I can think of a couple of examples in Ireland who I won't name. Media and the arts are very unstable career areas as well as youth-oriented. It explains it for me, but doesn't excuse it, because they have made it even harder for those further down the food chain to speak out.

[Milotic]

I defended my trans exs rights to the point that I did things I should be in prison for.

A lot of us are abused, gaslighted and brainwashed into it.

So no. I dont think I had any part to take responsibility for, despite what I've done or said because I wouldnt have been doing them without first being subjected to some of the most severe forms of brainwashing and abuse you can imagine.

[HH160bpm]

Milotic I hope things are better now, that sounds horrific.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Thank you QuarantineDream, SameoldBS and Broomfondle (great names!) and I feel for you, Milotic. There are some really good contributions here, I feel, and the observation of "toxic niceness" resonates with me. I also completely with the prediction that those TRAs who will suffer the most once the whole thing comes crashing down will be women. I fully expect to have my own words thrown back in my face, having made compromises for an easy life.

And that's the thing that preoccupies me: where is the exit, and what does it look like? How can we repair the deep chasms that have opened up between us and women we once trusted? Of course women can be crap human beings but it's often good friends and family that we fall out with over this issue. That's why it's important to understand where they are coming from and to try and be kind - really kind, not performative kind. But maybe I'm being naive now.

[Divoc2020]

I also think that this debate is complicated and time-consuming to unpick and understand and many women either don't have the time or the inclination to truly engage with the issues, so they base their POVs on the media-grabbing headlines about trans suicide or oppression, or the #bekind mantra.

I'll sound awful for saying this, but I think about half of my all-female book group are fairly superficial really and it's hard to engage them in any kind of intellectual debate (about anything!)

[DonkeySkin]

I see many women who seem to work with equal determination to erode their sexes legal rights. Does framing this battle as as 'men vs women' undermine our efforts to truly understand what is happening?

I am not being goady. I genuinely want a discussion about the role of women in the trans right activist movement. I also want to reflect more broadly on how women work to maintain systems of power which benefit men. I think that this is important if we want to move forward and understand what is going on.

I agree OP, especially on your last point. Understanding why women are supporting the erasure of sex as a social and legal category is crucial to turning things around. Obviously, groupthink and peer pressure is a huge part of the dynamic, but IMO women who support trans activism usually do so for different reasons to men, and often for reasons specifically related to their feminist principles.

I posted a thread a few months ago talking about this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3838463-Why-do-women-support-gender-identity-ideology

I hope you don't mind if I cut and paste from my answers in that thread. I came up with three main reasons for the deep appeal of gender identity theory for women:

1. There seems to be an assumption on the part of many women that men who are coded as feminine share a basic political condition with women. Men who adopt feminine appearance norms and/or men have sex with men are often derided as ‘woman-like’ by other men. I think this is the real logic behind the slogan ‘trans women are women’. I don’t think the women parroting this truly believe that men are women if they say so; they can still tell the difference between male and female human beings. But I do think they believe that women and men who ‘identify as women’ share a common condition and therefore a common cause. Many women also assume that a man declaring he wants to be one of us is performing the ultimate act of solidarity, and it would be churlish to refuse to offer solidarity in return.
   
   However, this analysis is in error. If you look closely at what is done to women and girls under male domination, you can see that it is quite distinct in both degree and kind from what is done to feminine-coded men. Further, there’s little evidence that men who are excluded from traditional ‘manhood’ have any special sympathy with women or understanding of our lives. These men seem just as capable as any of assuming that women exist to serve their needs. You can see this in the sexist attitudes of many gay men, and in extremis in the current trans movement, which displays a sociopathic disregard for how its demands will impact on women and girls, all the while expecting boundless empathy from us.
   
   
2. A central tenet of second-wave feminism, liberal AND radical, has been that sexual biology is largely irrelevant to who we are as human beings. I don’t often agree with Camille Paglia, but she said something a while back that struck me as very insightful: she said that when women’s studies were first being established at universities, she was surprised that none of the programs included a module on female biology. Paglia said that if you were purporting to be studying women, surely you could not ignore biology – but that is exactly what the feminist academics did. They assumed it was either of little importance, or a danger zone to be avoided because of the way men had used it as an excuse for excluding us from the public sphere.
   
   I think that most women in the West have internalised this message: to be treated as equal in the world means that we should be regarded, and regard ourselves, as basically interchangeable with men, bar some superficial gendered coding. It’s therefore not surprising that many women assume that having male biology should be no barrier to being regarded as a ‘woman’.
   
   
3. Finally, at the heart of the appeal of gender ideology to women is utopianism: transgender ideology offers a dream in which humans can transcend our bodies, a world where being male or female truly no longer matters. It’s easy to see why this vision holds irresistible appeal for many women, when it is our sexed bodies that have been used as the reason for our subordination for millennia, and the targets of so much violence and scorn. Nor are the (mostly young) women who take up this dream the first to do so. In Right Wing Women, Andrea Dworkin offers a scathing account of the 60s anti-war/free love movement, which she joined enthusiastically as a young woman (pp.88-91):
   
   It was simple. A bunch of nasty bastards who hated making love were making war. A bunch of boys who liked flowers were making love and refusing to make war. These boys were wonderful and beautiful. They wanted peace. They talked love, love, love, not romantic love but love of mankind (translated by women: humankind). They grew their hair long and painted their faces and wore colorful clothes and risked being treated like girls. In resisting going to war, they were cowardly and sissies and weak, like girls. No wonder the girls of the sixties thought that these boys were their special friends, their special allies, lovers each and every one…
   
   The dream for the girls at base was a dream of a sexual and social empathy that negated the strictures of gender, a dream of sexual equality based on what men and women had in common, what the adults tried to kill in you as they made you grow up. It was a desire for a sexual community more like childhood—before girls were crushed under and segregated. It was a dream of sexual transcendence: transcending the absolutely dichotomized male-female world of the adults who made war not love. It was—for the girls—a dream of being less female in a world less male; an eroticization of sibling equality, not the traditional male dominance.
   
   I think many women see in gender identity theory 'an eroticization of sibling equality' and 'a way of being less female in a world less male'. It's an appealing vision of a world in which sexual power dynamics are totally recreated and transformed. No wonder young women are drawn to it. As for this line about the 60s hippie boys: 'They grew their hair long and painted their faces and wore colorful clothes and risked being treated like girls' - that about sums up why so many women feel instinctive solidarity with men who identify as trans or non-binary. Like the girls of the 60s, they think they are their 'special friends, special allies'. And like the girls of the 60s, they are spectacularly wrong on that score.

[OvaHere]

Great post DonkeySkin

I've had numerous real life conversations about how 2nd wave feminism never adequately tackled motherhood which obviously is related to the female biology that Paglia mentioned.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Oh my God, Dworkin saw it all and put it so clearly. There really is nothing to add to this.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Another thought: that's perhaps why the female gender identity crowd always go on about their 'trans sisters' - it is the eroticisation of sibling equality, and it may explain some of the dynamics we see in heterosexual marriages in which the male partner transitions.