Women and their role in trans right activism

[DJLippy]

Trans right activism is often framed as a men's right movement. For the following reasons:

• Removing women's sexed based rights

• Erasing the language needed for women to talk about their biology

• Attacking women who disagree with it's aims with violent and sexualised language

All this is true but in framing this as a 'penis cult' and laying the blame with men (as a class) do we erase the significant contribution that females (no matter how they identify) have made to this movement? These individuals hold significant roles in organisations front and center of the movement.

• Susie Green (Mermaids)
• Ruth Hunt and Nancy Kelley (Stonewall)
• James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
• Stephen Whittle (Press for Change)

There are a number of other women who support the movement who I will not name for fear that this thread will be deleted.

On a personal level, for every bearded 'woke bloke' I have argued with online, I have had 'run ins' with just as many women. Often the mobbing I receive is more extreme in 'women only' spaces like the Atheist feminists. They even use violent and sexualised threats similar to those from their male counterparts. I am sure that women on this board have faced similar interactions.

I know the traditional explanation is that these women are 'handmaids of the patriarchy.' They throw women under the bus to preserve their own position within the system of male dominance and protect themselves from abuse. For example, FGM is carried out and supported in many cases by women.

However, in men's right activist circles these women, more often than not act as 'tokens' and are not given positions of structural power. I don't think the same can be said of this particular movement.

Do we need a more nuanced analysis of how women work to support the patriarchy or is this movement different from other forms of male dominance? I see many women who seem to work with equal determination to erode their sexes legal rights. Does framing this battle as as 'men vs women' undermine our efforts to truly understand what is happening?

I am not being goady. I genuinely want a discussion about the role of women in the trans right activist movement. I also want to reflect more broadly on how women work to maintain systems of power which benefit men. I think that this is important if we want to move forward and understand what is going on.

Thoughts?

[risefromyourgrave]

I would hazard a guess that for any female on social media, especially Instagram, it’s all about validation. Saying something nice about transgender people = instant likes/comments/shares = instant gratification.
The average age of people on Instagram is low enough so that the females have not yet experienced (or maybe ‘realised’ is a better word) most of the ‘bad side’ of patriarchy. So far they have youth and beauty on their side, eventually for the majority of them they will realise that once a man doesn’t want to sleep with them (as a younger woman has come along) he will stop pretend to be interested in what she has to say. (Cynical? Me?)

[dayoftheclownfish]

Helmet, funny that you should mention Tomb Raider, it was seeing feminine, dainty Alicia Vikander in the latest film that made me think 'really - how can she possibly hand on to a moving plane with these tiny arms??'. It's just make believe.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Milotic, the impulse to protect someone you see as vulnerable is strong, especially in those with female socialisation.

Regarding the points on activism, I think that's really important! An interesting thread on twitter about this: twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1278076432661360641

There are now universities that offer degrees in activism, that surely tells you something. Activism has been de-fanged, professionalised, made safe for corporations and also governments. How else to we explain the lucrative grants that flow from the UK government to various 'charities' that are really political lobbying groups, such as Stonewall?

Trans activism is safe & approved. No risks, easy wins (or so it seems in the 'this will only affect a tiny minority' narrative). Good feelings guaranteed. Appealing aesthetics.

[Helmetbymidnight]

oh im very glad to see this thread - ive been thinking about it a lot-

yes. re not being limitations of sexed bodies- ive been watching a lot of ya films with dd lately- divergent, tomb raider, wonder woman, hunger games- all these feature women beating up men all over the place - in a way that um isnt possible in real life.

ime- women who are most pro removing womens rights are:
the mothers or close friends of transkids.
gay women who identify with trans being oppressed/outsider.
women who like woo- reject science/facts.

[xxyzz]

Such an interesting thread.

I don't think woke women all have the same reasons for their views.

I think among young women I know, it's down to 3 things:

1. Many have trans friends of their own age, usually young transmen, who are largely quite damaged and vulnerable, often autistic. So not to stand with them in their suffering would seem unkind. They have no contact with older AGPs so their image when they think of trans rights is totally different to mine.

1. Be kind is deeply felt. And being kind is not a bad impulse. Just they aren't yet aware that sometimes being kind is not the right response to people who are anything but kind to you in return. Sometimes you have to be tough to protect yourself. But they haven't learnt that yet.

Pomo - they have spent their whole lives being told everything is relative and there is no truth, to the extent they literally cannot get their heads round biological facts being fixed and not mutable.

I am less tolerant of it among older women. Among older women, I think it is so down to 3 things:

1. Stupidity and/or lack of critical engagement with women's rights. The middle-aged woman I know who goes on all the time about trans rights is really stupid (fail your degree level of stupid) and woke in the wrongest, most stupid ways.

1. Greed and personal ambition - the Ruth Hunts of this world.

1. Cowardice. This is the only one I have some sympathy with. If they feel threatened, it may be easier to back down. That at least is understandable.

[bettybeans]

"But if you’re young and think of yourself as an activist and feminist, the trans-rights cause is a perfect intersection of female socialisation and popular culture."

Bingo. It's easy for a woman, and it's safe.

[DancelikeEmmaGoldman]

There’s an excellent discussion of this topic on Meghan Murphy’s The Same Drugs podcast.

Because women in some countries have the rights women have fought for, its much harder for young women to see the fault lines. If you’re young and attractive and well-educated, things like domestic violence or homelessness in older women or the enormous inequities women experience in pregnancy and caring for children, might seem very distant and distinctly unsexy.

But if you’re young and think of yourself as an activist and feminist, the trans-rights cause is a perfection intersection of female socialisation and popular culture.

You can’t really blame women for throwing in their lot with the dominant power structures - it might seem a safer space. There’s a very long history of women policing women on behalf of men - women performing female genital mutilation is a horrific example.

There’s good reason why TRAs make an effort to dismiss older feminists and drive a bus between GC feminists and their female supporters.

I loved this video from Twitter. I don’t know that the young women who have bought into the most-oppressed narrative will listen though.

mobile.twitter.com/JenniferAnne_s/status/1276520190927396869

Listen to MK Fain on trashing and infighting in feminism from The Same Drugs on Apple Podcasts. podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-same-drugs/id1504029211?i=1000479961471

[HarryHarry]

Do you think this is another example of the “Cool Girl” stereotype? I came across this excerpt from Gone Girl:

“And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They're not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they're pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be [...] basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn't ever complain”.

“Go ahead, shit on me, I don't mind, I'm the Cool Girl”.

[HarryHarry]

@KylieKoKo I’m not sure. A friend of mine actually said that she thinks trans women’s feelings/comfort/security/privacy/dignity is more important than women’s, because they are more vulnerable and more oppressed than us. This friend considers herself a feminist but how can she can be if she thinks like that?!

[Goosefoot]

I think many women see in gender identity theory 'an eroticization of sibling equality' and 'a way of being less female in a world less male'. It's an appealing vision of a world in which sexual power dynamics are totally recreated and transformed. No wonder young women are drawn to it.

That's very interesting, and I can see that does appeal to young women. I remember being in jr high or high school and thinking something like that.

As a middle aged woman though, I would reject that idea, not just as something I don't think is possible, but it seems very unappealing now. I don't want to live in a world where women are less female or men less male, I want woman and men to be happy as women and men. Wanting to be less female seems rather anti-woman, even. I certainly don't want my romantic/sexual relationships to be some sort of eroticisation of a sibling relationship, because that seems deeply un-erotic to me.

I wonder if part of the reason for younger women feeling that way isn't just a sort of utopian desire, but is also about an immature way of relating sexually more generally?

[Goosefoot]

I really hate the term handmaidens. Sure, there are some women (and men) who go along with things to keep themselves in with those in power, this applies to all kinds of situations. But there is a tendency to dismiss any woman who takes a view seen as non-feminist and dismiss her as a handmaiden. As if people can't legitimately come to different conclusions about subjects that feminists talk about.

I do think that age plays something of a factor in this.

But I think to get at the answer for this it's worth looking at the bigger picture of social activism and the kind of academic departments that gender activism seems to be found in. Even progressive political parties general, or progressive groups of other kind, progressive churches, clubs, whatever. A lot of them are female dominated or have a larger % of female representation than average. Women seem to be drawn to these causes, and the kind of discourse you find in them.

[Milotic]

You can agree with me or not on the personalities, that should say. But it's how I see it and process it with my own identity issues.

[Milotic]

Another thought: that's perhaps why the female gender identity crowd always go on about their 'trans sisters' - it is the eroticisation of sibling equality, and it may explain some of the dynamics we see in heterosexual marriages in which the male partner transitions.

It's because these men, the abusive trans identifying agp ones (not all trans people) are damaged.

Sometimes in the most horrific, heartbreaking stomach turning ways.

My ex has about 5 personalities. You can gree with menorah not but this is how I saw them. He switches like me. The male and female are the main two. And he can only do the extremes of those. Male is hyper masculine. Female is what he thinks is hyper feminine but actually isnt I'm hyper feminine when I'm manic or dissociative. Hes just behaving like a crackhead.

Then theres 3 others. Two are children.

It's those that draw you in.

I genuinely believe the ones like my ex are suffering with an identity disorder. I do. And I KNOW that if I were encouraged I'd be behaving in exactly the same way as their equivalent behaviour at present (teenage, egocentrical, knee jerking, demanding).

The things that happened to my ex that caused this are horrific. They would make any mother cry and want to hug their children. I have nightmares knowing what those two little boys went through, but with my own children in their place.

This is deliberate I think. If not conscious then its learned from growing up around manipulative people and they subconsciously know they get a good response.

It's the injured abused child inside you're defending. In my head. It wasnt the same as defending a grown man's shitty behaviour. I was defending the child that was damaged so badly it made him this way.

You get SO involved and angry about the injustice of what's happened to that. You think about the child a LOT and the emotions get tied to the adult they now are.

Until you separate that its VERY difficult to see what you're doing defending them as wrong.

To me, not defending him eventually felt as wrong as if I didnt defend or believe my own children.

[SapphosRock]

Really interesting thread.

My DW is a huge trans ally and it's not about being a handmaiden to the patriarchy - she's a lesbian and feminist so that label doesn't fit.

She just wholeheartedly believes TWAW and TMAM. Therefore will fight for trans rights as the believes she is supporting her fellow women.

She is also upset by the high suicide rate in the trans community and often tells me that many don't make it past their 50s. She thinks in general they are more deserving of compassion and have things much harder time than women do.

[Milotic]

@HH160bpm oops meant to tag HH xx

[Milotic]

@dayoftheclownfish
@PhoenixBuchanan
Thankyou x

[DonkeySkin]

that's perhaps why the female gender identity crowd always go on about their 'trans sisters' - it is the eroticisation of sibling equality, and it may explain some of the dynamics we see in heterosexual marriages in which the male partner transitions.

Absolutely, clownfish. The thing is though, that while women are hoping for sibling equality, what they are getting is more male dominance (just as in the free-love movement of the 60s.)

That's why I think it's important that we direct our arguments towards exposing this dynamic, rather than going down the dead-end of arguing about whether men can really be women, or whether intersex disproves the sex binary, etc.

Instead of saying, 'Humans cannot change sex, that's just SCIENCE!' (they already know that)

Or: 'Self ID will expose women and girls to predators '(they know that too, but they think trans are a more vulnerable group and their needs are more pressing - also, why are you calling trans people predators? How hateful)

Try asking: Why don't these men, who you call 'sisters', seem to care if their demands make the world less safe and equal for women and girls? Why do they insist that our needs must always be subordinate to theirs? Why do they have so little empathy for women - the group they claim to 'identify' as?

These sorts of questions will probably have little effect on hardcore TRA supporters. But for the women who are casual supporters, who are going along with it to 'be kind' and because they truly do believe that the interests of women and men who identify as women are aligned, I think they can plant a seed, help them to see the sexual power dynamics that they likely have already subconsciously sensed, but lack the language to articulate.

How can we repair the deep chasms that have opened up between us and women we once trusted? Of course women can be crap human beings but it's often good friends and family that we fall out with over this issue. That's why it's important to understand where they are coming from and to try and be kind - really kind, not performative kind. But maybe I'm being naive now.

I don't think these questions are naive. They're crucial, in fact. I hate the acrimony that has arisen between women over this. We need to find a way to have better conversations with other women that don't devolve into a shit-fight over whether 'transwomen are women'.

Our overriding problem (apart from the massive censorship around this issue, of course) is that we are having the wrong arguments. It's important, when talking to pro-TRA women, to tackle what they really believe (women and feminine-presenting men share a basic condition under patriarchy, they identify with women and we are part of the same struggle), rather than what they purport to believe (sex isn't real or meaningful because clownfish/intersex/hysterectomies).

[dayoftheclownfish]

Another thought: that's perhaps why the female gender identity crowd always go on about their 'trans sisters' - it is the eroticisation of sibling equality, and it may explain some of the dynamics we see in heterosexual marriages in which the male partner transitions.

[dayoftheclownfish]

Oh my God, Dworkin saw it all and put it so clearly. There really is nothing to add to this.

[OvaHere]

Great post DonkeySkin

I've had numerous real life conversations about how 2nd wave feminism never adequately tackled motherhood which obviously is related to the female biology that Paglia mentioned.

[DonkeySkin]

I see many women who seem to work with equal determination to erode their sexes legal rights. Does framing this battle as as 'men vs women' undermine our efforts to truly understand what is happening?

I am not being goady. I genuinely want a discussion about the role of women in the trans right activist movement. I also want to reflect more broadly on how women work to maintain systems of power which benefit men. I think that this is important if we want to move forward and understand what is going on.

I agree OP, especially on your last point. Understanding why women are supporting the erasure of sex as a social and legal category is crucial to turning things around. Obviously, groupthink and peer pressure is a huge part of the dynamic, but IMO women who support trans activism usually do so for different reasons to men, and often for reasons specifically related to their feminist principles.

I posted a thread a few months ago talking about this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3838463-Why-do-women-support-gender-identity-ideology

I hope you don't mind if I cut and paste from my answers in that thread. I came up with three main reasons for the deep appeal of gender identity theory for women:

1. There seems to be an assumption on the part of many women that men who are coded as feminine share a basic political condition with women. Men who adopt feminine appearance norms and/or men have sex with men are often derided as ‘woman-like’ by other men. I think this is the real logic behind the slogan ‘trans women are women’. I don’t think the women parroting this truly believe that men are women if they say so; they can still tell the difference between male and female human beings. But I do think they believe that women and men who ‘identify as women’ share a common condition and therefore a common cause. Many women also assume that a man declaring he wants to be one of us is performing the ultimate act of solidarity, and it would be churlish to refuse to offer solidarity in return.
   
   However, this analysis is in error. If you look closely at what is done to women and girls under male domination, you can see that it is quite distinct in both degree and kind from what is done to feminine-coded men. Further, there’s little evidence that men who are excluded from traditional ‘manhood’ have any special sympathy with women or understanding of our lives. These men seem just as capable as any of assuming that women exist to serve their needs. You can see this in the sexist attitudes of many gay men, and in extremis in the current trans movement, which displays a sociopathic disregard for how its demands will impact on women and girls, all the while expecting boundless empathy from us.
   
   
2. A central tenet of second-wave feminism, liberal AND radical, has been that sexual biology is largely irrelevant to who we are as human beings. I don’t often agree with Camille Paglia, but she said something a while back that struck me as very insightful: she said that when women’s studies were first being established at universities, she was surprised that none of the programs included a module on female biology. Paglia said that if you were purporting to be studying women, surely you could not ignore biology – but that is exactly what the feminist academics did. They assumed it was either of little importance, or a danger zone to be avoided because of the way men had used it as an excuse for excluding us from the public sphere.
   
   I think that most women in the West have internalised this message: to be treated as equal in the world means that we should be regarded, and regard ourselves, as basically interchangeable with men, bar some superficial gendered coding. It’s therefore not surprising that many women assume that having male biology should be no barrier to being regarded as a ‘woman’.
   
   
3. Finally, at the heart of the appeal of gender ideology to women is utopianism: transgender ideology offers a dream in which humans can transcend our bodies, a world where being male or female truly no longer matters. It’s easy to see why this vision holds irresistible appeal for many women, when it is our sexed bodies that have been used as the reason for our subordination for millennia, and the targets of so much violence and scorn. Nor are the (mostly young) women who take up this dream the first to do so. In Right Wing Women, Andrea Dworkin offers a scathing account of the 60s anti-war/free love movement, which she joined enthusiastically as a young woman (pp.88-91):
   
   It was simple. A bunch of nasty bastards who hated making love were making war. A bunch of boys who liked flowers were making love and refusing to make war. These boys were wonderful and beautiful. They wanted peace. They talked love, love, love, not romantic love but love of mankind (translated by women: humankind). They grew their hair long and painted their faces and wore colorful clothes and risked being treated like girls. In resisting going to war, they were cowardly and sissies and weak, like girls. No wonder the girls of the sixties thought that these boys were their special friends, their special allies, lovers each and every one…
   
   The dream for the girls at base was a dream of a sexual and social empathy that negated the strictures of gender, a dream of sexual equality based on what men and women had in common, what the adults tried to kill in you as they made you grow up. It was a desire for a sexual community more like childhood—before girls were crushed under and segregated. It was a dream of sexual transcendence: transcending the absolutely dichotomized male-female world of the adults who made war not love. It was—for the girls—a dream of being less female in a world less male; an eroticization of sibling equality, not the traditional male dominance.
   
   I think many women see in gender identity theory 'an eroticization of sibling equality' and 'a way of being less female in a world less male'. It's an appealing vision of a world in which sexual power dynamics are totally recreated and transformed. No wonder young women are drawn to it. As for this line about the 60s hippie boys: 'They grew their hair long and painted their faces and wore colorful clothes and risked being treated like girls' - that about sums up why so many women feel instinctive solidarity with men who identify as trans or non-binary. Like the girls of the 60s, they think they are their 'special friends, special allies'. And like the girls of the 60s, they are spectacularly wrong on that score.

[Divoc2020]

I also think that this debate is complicated and time-consuming to unpick and understand and many women either don't have the time or the inclination to truly engage with the issues, so they base their POVs on the media-grabbing headlines about trans suicide or oppression, or the #bekind mantra.

I'll sound awful for saying this, but I think about half of my all-female book group are fairly superficial really and it's hard to engage them in any kind of intellectual debate (about anything!)

[dayoftheclownfish]

Thank you QuarantineDream, SameoldBS and Broomfondle (great names!) and I feel for you, Milotic. There are some really good contributions here, I feel, and the observation of "toxic niceness" resonates with me. I also completely with the prediction that those TRAs who will suffer the most once the whole thing comes crashing down will be women. I fully expect to have my own words thrown back in my face, having made compromises for an easy life.

And that's the thing that preoccupies me: where is the exit, and what does it look like? How can we repair the deep chasms that have opened up between us and women we once trusted? Of course women can be crap human beings but it's often good friends and family that we fall out with over this issue. That's why it's important to understand where they are coming from and to try and be kind - really kind, not performative kind. But maybe I'm being naive now.

[HH160bpm]

Milotic I hope things are better now, that sounds horrific.

[Milotic]

I defended my trans exs rights to the point that I did things I should be in prison for.

A lot of us are abused, gaslighted and brainwashed into it.

So no. I dont think I had any part to take responsibility for, despite what I've done or said because I wouldnt have been doing them without first being subjected to some of the most severe forms of brainwashing and abuse you can imagine.