Abiu/ re feminism

[Annoyedatyourbs]

that its quite difficult to have healthy debate about the groups of feminism in this specific forum.

It appears a lot of people are quite aggressive in their views within their specific type of feminism and it really closes down any attempt at debate or opportunities to learn.

I'm young and inexperienced and I genuinely want to learn about other perspectives from REAL women but its increasingly difficult here and on twitter.

Would there be any resources / alternatives forums that you all suggest that are varied in their type of feminism but not aggressive in their views / cult like ?

(I love passion and I'm ready for passionate people but I'm specifically talking about people who try and push their pov through demeaning comments and making fun of the other person to attempt to get an upper hand without putting any evidence , thoughtful contribution)

Thank you

NB please note the OP has name changed from @Annoyedatyourbs to @Longingtolearn so it’s worth reading her later posts which give a better indication of where she’s coming from.

Longingtolearn when you name change part way through a conversation you start, your posts are no longer highlighted, so someone who’s skimmed the thread looking for your updates, won’t immediately see your comments.

@FloralBunting

Quinoa is only posh if you don't pronounce it phonetically and have it on the plate on purpose and not just because you picked up a cheaty bag of microwave rice and didn't read the packet properly...

Nope

The second it passes your lips it makes you a posh person who eats quinoa

And if you spit it out its much too late...you are posh forever

Fact

Good luck longingtolearn 😀

Love the new moniker Longing

Hi OP, good for you for stepping down a bit from your starting position and coming at these questions with an open mind. In many ways my journey to feminism started through atheism and skepticism. I was never religious growing up but it caught me several years ago after a bereavement that I just couldn't accept. And part of the process of accepting and moving past that loss was letting go of the comfort blanket of "it happened for a reason", "I'll meet them again one day, their soul has lived on" etc. It was an extremely hard process for me, it involved a lot of facing up to very difficult emotions, intellectual honesty, and searching for what was most likely to be true over what felt the nicest. So I watched a lot of atheist/theist debates and learnt to recognise the various logical fallacies involved. I learnt that productive discussions require a clear and coherent starting point, where both parties lay out what they believe and why, and that where important concepts or words are being used there needs to be a clear agreement between both parties as to what those words mean for the purposes of the discussion. I learnt that in order to make the best decisions with the information available to you, you need to aspire to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. To do this you need to recognise when your beliefs are and are not supported by the evidence and be willing to let go of positions which you can't defend. If you're experiencing cognitive dissonance you need to stop and interrogate what is causing it. It's not an easy process, but it is a rewarding one and it gets easier with practise. When I found this board and started reading the debates I found that the radical feminist position was the one which seemed the most logically sound and intellectually honest. FWR can be a robust space at times. The women here are sick to death of being told to "be kind" and no one will guarantee you no swearing. It's true that a lot of posters here hold similar views and if you have an alternative position you can find yourself facing quite a lot of replies at the same time. I understand that that can be intimidating for some people and that this has lead some people to dismiss FWR as an echo chamber where only 1 opinion is allowed. This couldn't be further from the truth. All opinions are not only allowed but encouraged - we simply ask that you be prepared to defend your beliefs and back them up with evidence. Everyone here is willing to debate, be challenged, and be proven wrong. If the majority of posters here share a position it's not because of group think, but because the position is the one that the majority believe is best supported by evidence. So get stuck in, prove people wrong or be proven wrong, reject or confirm your beliefs, hone your debating skills, and enjoy the rare experience of being in a space that unapologetically puts women first. Looking forward to reading more of your posts and engaging with you on other threads.

@Longingtolearn fair play to you. I don’t post often but I’ve learned a lot from following discussions on this board. There are many very intelligent and articulate women here to learn from. I personally found this essay really helpful when I was trying to articulate to myself why the common counter arguments against GC feminism just didn’t seem to stack up.

medium.com/@kathleenstock/doing-better-in-arguments-about-sex-and-gender-3bec3fc4bdb6

Your username tells anyone replying to you all they need to know

InfiniteSheldon the OP has since changed their name to LongingtoLearn.

One of my favourite pieces of writing about feminism is whitesforracialequity.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Frye.oppression.pdf

I love Marilyn Frye.

You might find it interesting.

Quinoa might be posh, and I might have become posh by osmosis the minute it went in my gob, but I comfort myself that my working class heart called it 'posh' and if I really was posh, I'd have called it a 'basic cupboard staple'.

I love avocado toast with chia seeds

And lime salt and sunflower seeds 😀

I’m posh. Never had quinoa in my life. But I live in social housing on benefits and a goat, so that may be why.

if I really was posh, I'd have called it a 'basic cupboard staple'.

That reminds me of that hilarious Waitrose list of "essentials" that they thought all student cupboards should have that had nary a packet of ramen in sight.

Also chia seeds just make me think of this, so I'll have to have flax seeds instead.

I actually disagree that twitter isn't a good place to learn if you want to see more than just the MN view. There is a lot of misinformation and anger on there but there are still a number of feminists worth following.

What makes you angry Longingtolearn?

I'm probably one of the least well-read feminists here and learn constantly from other brilliant women. I was drawn to feminism through what I have observed and experienced and am in awe of what women can achieve and how effective a collaborative approach can be.

My inspiration is the role of women in political movements, women who say we can do this better; CND, the Northern Irish Peace Settlement, Doreen Lawrence, Malala Yousafzai, Greta Thunberg and everyday heroines who just crack on with looking out for others. And rarely for personal glory. While women do things for causes, men do them for themselves.

I'm not a fan of Nicola Sturgeon's politics (especially re women) but I saw this on her twitter yesterday. Feminism is for grown-ups.

@Dicotyledon

I’m posh. Never had quinoa in my life. But I live in social housing on benefits and a goat, so that may be why.

I desperately need to read a book with this exact set up.

I only discovered 'ramen' in the last couple of years. I saw it on cookery programmes and it was all exotic and had fancy veg and stuff in it. I then discovered it was just Supernoodles which rather took the shine off.

Still, I do like supernoodles and crispy pancakes.

@ItsLateHumpty

Thank you !!

I had no clue I just assumed as I'm the same poster with the same profile info it would just change with me iyswim??

I'm on my phone which apparently is not good for mumsnet format aha so not sure how to bold or italics

I desperately need to read a book with this exact set up.

Me too, mostly because I'm dying to know how one lives on a goat. Like, on its back? Poor little goat...

Sorry. Its the pet goat that all claimants receive irrespective of the fact we have nowhere to put it. Her name is Dory🐐

Findus Crispy Pancakes!

I want one now. Damnit.

Thank you very much for that link SuperLoudPoppingAction - that is so helpful to read. I will return to that several times to digest it.

I do still believe heavily in self identity and its importance.

Question for you to ponder, OP: do you believe in the importance of my being able to self-define as "woman: adult human female"?

gender critical feminism is a subtype i have barely touched before.

Then I'd respectfully suggest that what you've been told is feminism is not, in fact, feminism. Criticism of gender (sex role stereotypes as a mechanism of female oppression) is pretty integral to feminism. The stuff you see touted as feminism in the mainstream has been sanitised and defanged to make it unthreatening to the balance of power within society; if may look feministy but if it weren't inherently patriarchal in function then it wouldn't gain mainstream traction.

Up until about 3 months ago I just assumed GC was gemma collins.

Acronyms are awkward buggers at times. I'm sure my sister had permanently raised eyebrows when we first started discussing the ramifications of genderist ideology - she's a dental nurse, so conversations about Aerosol-Generating Procedures in the ladies' loos made for some interesting mental images!

I'm on my phone which apparently is not good for mumsnet format aha so not sure how to bold or italics

For italics, you want the pointy-uppy symbol that's above the number 6 on the keyboard - put it either side of the bit you want to italicise. It's asterisks for bold. Strikethrough is a double hyphen.

While all Feminists are gender critical in is a mistake to assume that all gender critical people are Feminists.
Right wing women love their children too, and do not want them harmed.

I recommend Dworkin's view. If it harms women it isn't Feminism no matter what it says on the tin.