Abiu/ re feminism

[Annoyedatyourbs]

that its quite difficult to have healthy debate about the groups of feminism in this specific forum.

It appears a lot of people are quite aggressive in their views within their specific type of feminism and it really closes down any attempt at debate or opportunities to learn.

I'm young and inexperienced and I genuinely want to learn about other perspectives from REAL women but its increasingly difficult here and on twitter.

Would there be any resources / alternatives forums that you all suggest that are varied in their type of feminism but not aggressive in their views / cult like ?

(I love passion and I'm ready for passionate people but I'm specifically talking about people who try and push their pov through demeaning comments and making fun of the other person to attempt to get an upper hand without putting any evidence , thoughtful contribution)

Thank you

Oo, shall I do my periodic reminder? It might be helpful. FWR focuses on women and girl's rights and protections. The only reason trans-anything is relevant here is where it impacts those rights and protections. Even when discussing those issues - women and girls are the priority, always. It's not a 'trans forum', it's a forum about feminism, and I would much rather be having conversations about materially benefitting women, rather than having to right a rear guard action just to maintain the current status quo.

But we are where we are. Get stuck in, Longing. The truth will set you free, but first, it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem

@Annoyedatyourbs I will happily discuss things. I recently changed a lot of my strongly-held views on feminism, I used to be pretty woke and thought radical/gendercritical/second wave feminism was for older, bitter, judgemental man-hating types who just didnt 'get it'. Now I realise twas I who didn't get it! You can pm me if you want.

This is a fantastic board, it's unlike any other in my opinion.
There is a wealth of knowledge and good debates.

Longing you are in the right place to learn about the other side as you say and to understand different perspectives.
As an idea of what threads to read I recommend the surrogacy threads and there is a " break it down for me thread" about GC issues.

Women bluntly telling the truth or stating their opinion is not aggressive. It's just that we are taught it's not nice. And women must be nice. I have been guilty of confusing forthright opinion for aggression.

Yep. It’s proper shocking at first. Now I value it in the way I valued my nan’s ways of getting straight to the point, taking no shit from anyone and being incredibly amusing while she did it.

My personal FWR motto is BeMoreNan (although BeMoreMagdelen works in a similar way ❤️)

Jump right in here

Women here are dead friendly.

I got my education here on feminism

You are encouraged to think. You are encouraged not to be an arse

You are encouraged to be funny

1 thing I would say or even 2 or 3 things

You don’t need to have the tertiary. You need to read and sift out shite from good stuff

And have a laugh 🥂🥂

OP if you're really new to the topic I would recommend looking up stuff like this on wiki/ other sources

Abortion availability by country
Imprisoned for miscarrying
Rape laws by country
The 'missing millions' of girls
That sort of thing

Having a global view to some extent is really important.

I really appreciate the last few posts on here and will be looking into them !

(Won't tag all you lovelies but know it is greatly appreciated)

I understand that my oriental post may have been misworded but I'm here to learn some alternative views and better understand !

Funny to me but some of you may have eyes bulging out

Up until about 3 months ago I just assumed GC was gemma collins.

So many abbreviations how will I survive lol

I think fora few of us, we have all been were you are now.

I thought feminism was dead in the water, I'd had the luxury of grow up believing everything had been won, and the world was my oyster.

Coming to mumsnet 9 years ago was an eye opener, and venturing on to feminist chat to basically spouted some drivel of an opinion at them, caused me to be woken up with a rather large slap across the face with a wet fish.

I actually almost flounced from MN completely. But name changed instead, licked my wounds and tried to stay away from the boards, but morbid curiosity kept bringing me back to read odd threads I'd seen in active. I read, I read and read some more. later I asked the odd question on thread. I was quite active on here under different names for a while, but I mainly lurk now.

I love this board and the many wonderful articulate intelligent posters, and to see so many people join over the last few years is heartening.

As above I look for a wide range of issues, plus lurking on the relationship board is an education.

I'll see if I can find you a link to the 'break it down for me thread'

I used to think this section was scary. Now I love it and love the no-nonsense tone.

Welcome OP.

OP the other thing is to get to grips with some history.

Eg rape within marriage only was made illegal in the UK in (I think it was) 1994.

A lot of things that are taken for granted are only recently won even in UK. And laws existing doesn't mean they are adhered to (eg thousands of women lose their jobs because pregnant in UK every year).

Also look at how women are disproportionately impacted whenever the shit hits the fan (austerity, Corona etc).

Example, lots of women globally unable to get contraception, abortion due to the virus. Huge consequences. These things are often predictable but anything seen as 'women's issues' are sidelined even when they are in fact societal issues.

There's loads to get you teeth into before you head into more contraversial waters (sex 'work' is work, any choice a woman makes is a feminist one, empowerment through taking your clothes off while men strangely don't need to do this, and of course the whole trans thing).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Oh and more which should of been said to Starmer.

Miss me out from the bull shit

You learn stuff here. Really important stuff for our kids and how for me as a mum

And miss me out from the bull shit is one of them

Oh and you will see that the trans thing has totally taken over the board.

You can search for older threads on a wider range of issues.

It wasn't always so single issue but there are good reasons why it is. Because if women and girls globally have no name, stats are not recorded for us, then we're fucked, basically.

And who is Gemma Collins?

Gemma Collins is an ITV3 reality star, I think. Rather larger than life character, I seem to recall from half noticed glances at This Morning when it's on in the break room at work.

Rather charming of you, Longing. I don't call myself a 'GC feminist' because I think it's a tautology, but I'm now tickled by thinking what a Gemma Collins feminist would believe...

Here's my 2p worth.
The Maya Forstater case. Read her witness statement, the live tweeting from the case and the judgment. It will give you an insight into what we are fighting for and why. There's also a couple of threads for context. Yes it is a lot to read about one case but imo it's eye-opening.

Background: medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

Thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3743214-maya-forstater-court-case?pg=1

Live tweets from the tribunal: medium.com/@MForstater/live-tweets-from-the-tribunal-5bd28f8e39c1?source=---------8------------------

Witness statement and thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3753072-Maya-Forstater-witness-statement

And the tweets that have become so important, even though the case was not about that:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1209914779973931010.html?fbclid=IwAR39QwBupunbjEX_p6vNNEin6xQF7tNMJp0YDhjmOpx3hKXIB3R7YuNAfX8

the whole freedom to chose your own gender identity is to me quite a tricky issue, as in essence it's common to many gender critical feminists and the trans community

It’s so frustrating, I feel like outside the hardcore TRAs, GC and TWAW/TMAM Types (TTTs, for brevity) are really very close...both groups appreciate gender is basically a social construct, nothing to do with your biology; both groups think a person shouldn’t be bound by the gender rules society assigns to their biological sex; both understand male violence is a real issue. The difference is the TTTs think that freedom from gendered restrictions will be achieved by moving people between gender boxes or mix-and matching from fixed gender palettes, while the GCs think it will be achieved by getting rid of the concept of gendered behaviour and preferences altogether.

I certainly feel more in common with those people than with people who oppose trans identities from the social Right viewpoint that gendered behaviour (masculine/feminine) is a natural function of biological sex.

If you're young and inexperienced, there's this magic thing called google. Just type in your questions and you get instant answers without aggressive ladies harshing your mellow.

@Annoyedatyourbs

that its quite difficult to have healthy debate about the groups of feminism in this specific forum.

It appears a lot of people are quite aggressive in their views within their specific type of feminism and it really closes down any attempt at debate or opportunities to learn.

I'm young and inexperienced and I genuinely want to learn about other perspectives from REAL women but its increasingly difficult here and on twitter.

Would there be any resources / alternatives forums that you all suggest that are varied in their type of feminism but not aggressive in their views / cult like ?

(I love passion and I'm ready for passionate people but I'm specifically talking about people who try and push their pov through demeaning comments and making fun of the other person to attempt to get an upper hand without putting any evidence , thoughtful contribution)

Thank you

Given your opinion of us I wonder you took the trouble to come here.

“You are mistaken, Mr. Darcy, if you suppose that the mode of your declaration affected me in any other way, than as it spared the concern which I might have felt in refusing you, had you behaved in a more gentlemanlike manner." (Elizabeth Bennett)”

As an aside, I told my Mum her hat was very Liz Hurley. I then wondered who on earth LH is. Did she really become famous by being someone’s girlfriend and exposing her body in a ridiculous dress?

OP - this space does not exist to provide an education for you, so it is rude of you to open the conversation by complaining we are not serving your purposes. it’s here to provide a space to talk. For centuries women have served others and we are now reclaiming our right to just be and just talk, and this place is not about doing service to others. So don’t berate is for not doing so.

It’s rather a masculine thing to do: complaining that the women aren’t being nice and falling over themselves to help you.

It appears a lot of people are quite aggressive in their views within their specific type of feminism and it really closes down any attempt at debate or opportunities to learn
Define aggressive? Why do you think it’s anyone else’s job to teach you?

I'm young and inexperienced and I genuinely want to learn about other perspectives from REAL women but its increasingly difficult here and on twitter

What’s a real women op?

Would there be any resources / alternatives forums that you all suggest that are varied in their type of feminism but not aggressive in their views / cult like ?

I don’t know any forums like the one you described...why are you asking us anyway if you think we’re cult like?

OP, I was your age when I started reading feminist books. The internet had not yet been invented in those olden times.

You could do a lot worse than read some of those older books, eg The Female Eunuch, The Feminine Mystique, Backlash, The Beauty Myth, maybe a few ‘short introduction’ type books.

Then try looking at life and culture with the realisation that the default is male. Female is the ‘other’. Once I understood that, it all clicked into place.

I know nothing compared to most of the posters here. I’ve been reading and sometimes posting for a long time under different names. Give it a read perhaps without posting to start with. If you want to learn, you will.

@Blibbyblobby

the whole freedom to chose your own gender identity is to me quite a tricky issue, as in essence it's common to many gender critical feminists and the trans community

It’s so frustrating, I feel like outside the hardcore TRAs, GC and TWAW/TMAM Types (TTTs, for brevity) are really very close...both groups appreciate gender is basically a social construct, nothing to do with your biology; both groups think a person shouldn’t be bound by the gender rules society assigns to their biological sex; both understand male violence is a real issue. The difference is the TTTs think that freedom from gendered restrictions will be achieved by moving people between gender boxes or mix-and matching from fixed gender palettes, while the GCs think it will be achieved by getting rid of the concept of gendered behaviour and preferences altogether.

I certainly feel more in common with those people than with people who oppose trans identities from the social Right viewpoint that gendered behaviour (masculine/feminine) is a natural function of biological sex.

This is where I am - fuck the boxes!

I don't really know how to respond to us being described as 'aggressive/cult like'.