TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

If I believe trans women are women and believe they should be able to identify as "women" with certain legal caveats, am I still the enemy?

The problem is, the "caveats" that define areas where TW are not to be treated as women are going to be the parts of being a woman that are biologically non-negotiable like menstruation, childbearing, physical size and strength and female-specific health requirements, and the social aspects that arise from them like need for maternity leave, risk of male to female abuse and legal and social opportunities to counteract sex-based stereotypes. The parts of being a woman that could be open to TW are by definition the parts that aren't predicated on biology. But to gender critical people, those are just cultural myths attached to the idea of woman over the years that constrain and restrict us and they need to be challenged and detached from the definition of woman.

You aren't my enemy because I chose for you not to be, but be aware that by making a definition of woman that includes more than biology and its implications you are pushing an agenda that damages and reduces me.

Nellle, could you please clarify exactly what a transwoman is, in your own words?

I still believe that the Average Joe on the street would pay more attention to your legitimate concerns (concerns I share) if you weren’t so caught up in semantics.

I'm pretty sure the average adulthumanfemale would pay more attention to trans-identified people's concerns if the latter group weren't so caught up in semantics, too. It works both ways.

'the word doesn't matter to women - concede it. It's a side issue. But the word really matter to trans women. They MUST have it.'

The thing is, the word 'woman' does matter to me, because I've spent my life fighting against peers and a culture that say I'm not a real one just because I don't and won't engage in feminine expression.

And now we have adulthumanfemales on the adulthumanfemalerights board, claiming to be pro-women, while reinforcing that yes, my lack of feminine expression does indicate that I am not a real woman.

I appreciate that people are trying to engage, but the fact that the simplest yet most vital questions are consistently ignored is very telling.

Whatever 'woman the social construct' is, I categorically do not identify with it. I am female. Am I a woman, with all the legal rights and protections that entails, or not?

@MrsCollinssettled

Nellie I know the thread has garnered a lot of posts since my question to you at 21.11 yesterday but I am still keen to understand your position on biological women whose lives are being severely curtailed in order to be kind to trans women. Should they ignore the tenets of their religion? Should biological women victims of male violence be abandoned or told they can be helped as in the case of the refuge that a pp is involved with? How can we be kind to them?

Nellie this was my question

To be fair I'd say if there is a true "enemy' in this debate, it's those men who would abuse the system, given the chance, to take advantage of vulnerable women. Spoiling things for truly dysphoric or non conforming people in the process.

For a long time, transvestites, cross dressers, etc used womens spaces. Most of these men were gay, and not a threat to women. Then something changed,
autogynephilia became so common, even I, in my remote corner of non mainland UK, had a (terrible) boyfriend with it (and only learned the name for it here, years later).

Does anyone have any clue what causes agp and other similar fetishes? The whole "suck my lady dick" thing? Is it linked to the feelings of dysphoria? Which I suppose must cause all sorts of confused feelings, self esteem issues etc.

Whenever a trans person anounces they're trans here, or starts a thread about it, they get loads of thoughtful, articulate, possibly insightful questions, but once they see "transwomen aren't women" they stop engaging and disappear? Actually quite like some of my male relatives get agressive, storm off, or give the cold shoulder, when you disaggree with them. That makes further discussion impossible.

You're aware people with my view exist, right?

It's not a view which makes any sense unless you can define what a woman is, materially. Why "females and some males"? What's the logic?

I’m assuming the question what is a woman - without using stereotypes or feelings has not been answered? Can’t bring myself to read through the whole thread.

And if words have n meaning, why all of the fuss about identifying as a woman. Does it matter?

Great point.

Its been answered Notpot, by Nellle.

Anyone who wants to be.

I’m assuming the question what is a woman - without using stereotypes or feelings has not been answered?

It has, actually.

Woman has been defined as any human who chooses to use that word to describe him- or herself.

We're no closer to any meaningful content on why someone might choose that word rather than any other word, or what facet or quality of oneself is being alluded to by the use of the word.

@Nellle

Please don’t go.

I was thinking along your lines only recently and asked a similar question to you (you can search my username), but thinking about the legal implications, I don’t think it will work (many of the reasons are outlined on this thread).

I worked for 15 years in a very male dominated environment, rife with sexual harassment. I went from a scared young woman who was unsure about how to deal with unwanted comments, touches and suggestions to being very assertive and making jokes about how I would retire early on my payout from the sexual harassment lawsuit. This (and age) stopped any inappropriate behaviour, but I spent years trying to help younger colleagues.

I feel like I have entered a new level of hell. Saying no to seeing a penis is now no longer acceptable, but instead labelling vulnerable women bigots. The very procedures which used to protect women (at the expense of their career if handled badly) are used against the them.

But I'm not saying TWANW, because I'm literally saying exactly the opposite.

You're really not. If you thought they are exactly the same as women (females) you would take the hardline TRA position that women in sport aren't trying hard enough if they can't beat MTF trans people, because trans women are women and there's no common difference, right?

What is a transwoman, please, Nellle?

In your own words.

I'm not suggesting that you should take this position, I'm trying to demonstrate how absurd it is. But it is logically consistent within their parameters. Your view is not.

Anyone who wants to be

But we dont exist as theres definition or word for us so can you be something that doesnt exist? How can you identify as something that has no definition? It doesnt matter what side of the argument that's you are on of what you are arguing about isnt real

Thanks for this winesalot - I haven't read the research, but I will - thanks for linking.

My interest in the sport issue has grown gradually and I'm sure I've done very little reading compared to anyone here. I'm a big tennis fan, which (along with UFC/MMA) is the best big-business sport in terms of female representation. Some things stuck in my head - like when Serena Williams said she'd be lucky to return a single shot to Andy Murray and when Heather Watson commented that a bad period had really affected her game. I'd never heard women talk like that before. At the same time, I found myself arguing with (male) friends about the equal pay debate in tennis (women play fewer sets and are paid the same) and had absolutely no problem quashing their sexist arguments. I am not in any doubt about the pysiological differences between men and women and why women's sport needs to be protected.

Same time, another interesting case - Caster Semenya. I LOVE the Olympics. I have not read enough about her to know the situation, so I'm sure you'll put me straight (is she intersex?), but I'm sure I saw the tide turn really harshly against her? First, when she was accepted as 'female' she was defended for the terrible treatment she received, creepy obsession with her build and appearance and forced to take hormones. "This is appalling treatment" feminists said. But, am I right in thinking that she has since been 'found to be biological male'? I may be wrong. But suddenly, her wish to continue to be referred to as 'she' was refused or mocked, Her appearance and her relationship with her girlfriend were picked apart in forensic detail by the very 'feminists' who had defended such language before. I agree there now has to be a debate about her competing in women's sport, but why the hate? She has lived and breathed 'woman' her whole life. You'd say yourself that women don't have to be 'nice', so even if we think she should never compete again, we don't blame her if she refuses to go down without a fight.

My details are sketchy and yes, I know that Caster is not trans etc etc. I think it's a fascinating debate, because I believe TWAW and that they share the equal human right to identify as they wish.

I believe sex is important in sport and possibly a third space is the only option. But I also believe my trans friends are women and will always address them as such.

People who think that every word in the Bible is the literal truth exist. I'm allowed to think that they're wrong.

A woman is a human who identifies as female.
In the midst of all this, some men dress as women and they are still men, some men have identified as women in order to rape women and they too are still men. These are not women. And I have argued this with TRA friends.

I am not a TRA.

Also, I am not a troll. I am an extremely busy woman (not a particularly young one either, but thanks I guess...) who does not have much spare time on her hands. But I have enjoyed reading many of these posts, even when I don’t follow the same lines or opinions. Opinions and views of others are to be respected when the common goal is protecting the wellbeing of our species and protecting womens rights..
Yet I don’t see why I am not a feminist if I’m also concerned with the well-being of men and women who legitimately want to change their gender? I don’t see how it’s unfeminist of me to welcome trans women into book clubs to give examples about being a woman. Not a glittery, “feminine”, submissive woman, although wear what the hell you want. To teach them to be wary of men and what they can do.
Mostly I call a lot of women who would call men women because I see them as women and can’t be convinced otherwise.

I wish I had more time to structure and write my responses properly but I now have to go back to work while my DD draws on my walls with a Sharpie.

You are really not the enemy, Nellle. I hope the OP and some of the others come back to support you.

Can you see, though, that is is hugely frustrating to not have any definitions. It is honestly really not good enough to fudge the issue, wave it away and claim it's unimportant.

I already told you that your position would be deemed transphobic, so really you are sitting in the middle somewhere where there are no clear definitions.

In terms of TRA dogma - you are as bad as us because you want to talk about sports and safeguarding - therefore, you don't believe TWAW - you are just willing to allow trans women to use the word to make themselves feel better.

I think we should support all feminists including the intersectional ones

If you're into intersectionalism, please tell me how to reconcile the needs of male people to be women in all contexts without exception with female people whose needs intersect with:

religions that do not allow sharing spaces with males regardless of how the male identifies and feels

disabilities that do not allow for sharing space with males regardless of how the male identifies and feels

traumas and assault histories that do not allow for sharing space with males regardless of how the male identifies and feels

homosexuality, that does not allow for sharing their body and sexuality with males regardless of how the male identifies and feels.

How are we going to respect and meet those needs? Because if you care about intersectionalism, and diversity, here it is. Is excluding these females from any provision the right thing to do?

Particularly when the easy solution is to add third gender neutral/mixed sex spaces alongside female only provision and meet everyone's needs all at once?

I'm afraid no, I don't support forms of feminism that believe in exclusion of females from female provision.

If a woman is anyone who identifies as one then surely a transwoman is anyone who identifies as one.

Great, count me in. Centre me in all your activism, and never forget that us female trans women are far more oppressed than male transwomen who're privileged along the axis of sex.

Here's my question. Why the obsession with women's tone? Why is it so vitally important that we not say anything that offends or upsets anyone? Why is the same pressure to be nice never applied to the people on the other side of the argument?

(I see the monitors have been working their way through this thread, picking away as they always do)

A woman is a human who identifies as female.

Does that mean we stop being women when we die? Dead people don't identify as anything, because they're, y'know, dead.

Cool what is a female?

How do you identify as female though. What is it? Again you need definition of female and woman. What links me to my friend to the baby girls dumped in the trash ? There is only one single thing we have in common and that's our bodies. If our bodies arent female then what are we and how can you identify as something that has no definition?