TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

Meanwhile, a girlguide who starts the transition process is immediately kicked out. A male who starts the transition process is welcome with open arms immediately. In the same tent as your daughter. Former girl who changes their name = danger, danger, danger! Former boy who changes their name = welcome, welcome, welcome!

Really?

‘Woman’ does not mean vagina, uterus, menstruation

Actually, it does. When I go to a job interview as a woman of child bearing age it is assumed that I have a vagina and uterus and that I menstruate, whether I do or not. The law recognised that I might be discriminated against because I may get pregnant and take maternity leave or that employers have to pay to put sanitary bins in the loos because I may need them, or that I won’t be able to do the grunt work because despite being taller than the average man I am less strong, less able to carry heavy boxes etc.

Words matter, always.

Nellie I know the thread has garnered a lot of posts since my question to you at 21.11 yesterday but I am still keen to understand your position on biological women whose lives are being severely curtailed in order to be kind to trans women. Should they ignore the tenets of their religion? Should biological women victims of male violence be abandoned or told they can be helped as in the case of the refuge that a pp is involved with? How can we be kind to them?

Apart from anything else, the word clearly does matter to women, which we know because we can see women saying so here. Why does Nellle believe that Nellle has the right to tell all those women that they're wrong about what does and does not matter to them?

*Biological women cannot be helped in refuges

and yet it is JUST A WORD that we can share in the name of progress

OK - so if women is a word that can be shared in the name of progress, which word can I use to refer to people who need sex based rights, regardless of how they identify?

I still believe that the Average Joe on the street would pay more attention to your legitimate concerns (concerns I share) if you weren’t so caught up in semantics

I know its difficult when lots of people are posting at you, and I know I'm just one of many posters, but I have tried to be polite. I don't know how you protect anybody's rights if you can't define the people whose rights you are protecting.

You are concerned with affirming identity, but from my perspective, restrictions on women's rights to work or get an education or be recognised as a legal person have never been restricted because of their identity, only their sex.

It is part of you - like a given name

No, 'woman' is not part of me. With different biology I would not be a woman. My name isn't 'part of me' either.

Because language is powerful and important and every individual has the right to claim their own identity

I don't know what this means. I don't know why I would need to label my identity or why my identity needs to be legally recognised, or why anybody needs to classify anybody else's identity, or how assertion of an identity makes any difference to my need for sex based rights. There is no legal right to claim an identity.

That's really odd, actually. Would I be a different person if my parents had given me a different name? If so, why? Like much of this stuff it seems to be one part cod mysticism and one part desperately need something to justify what we're demanding so throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks.

Define "woman".

OoOps that was to Nellle

Honestly. I think everyone should have to answer that question for themselves before they engage on this subject - and really believe their definition.

If you can't do it - then you have to question why - and follow the logic to its ultimate conclusion.

Any answer will do. Even 'it's a sort of a pinky fluffy feeling.'

At least then you know what you are debating about.

But TRAs won't do that because they know very well that opening with "I think woman is a vague cluster of traditional ideas about femininity" will garner an immediate response of "that's sexist, mate" from any space with feminists in it.

What is a man? My definition would be adult human male. Does anyone have a different answer? Is anyone telling men to hand over the word men? Are they prostate havers? Penis wielders? Testicle holders? Or just men?

"It is part of you - like a given name - and yet it is JUST A WORD".

You really expect any woman who's ever had a period, or is panicking because they haven't had one, had sex, been sexually harrassed, assaulted or raped, been a victim of domestic abuse from a raging misogynist, worried about contraception, been treated as lesser or a skivvy by the men in your life or at work, been pregnant, through IVF, miscarried, given birth, been a mother or wife, been heartbroken by no sucess ttc, carried the mental load, been through menapause, etc, to believe that? That non of that has anything to do with being female..?

There are words that describes people that've been through one or more of the above, and that's woman, women, female and females. They were all (mostly) born with vaginas etc, and two x chromosomes.

Transmen are men who like feminine things, but having never been female, can never know what it's truly like. Because the only thing that makes anyone female, is biology. All the shit we get from men (in general, I know namalt, but a lot are), is because we're smaller, weaker and different, which led to them putting us down and controlling us for years. Now tra's are doing the same to the transmen who threaten their toxic (but effective) masculinity, and don't care that they're risking women and childrens safety to do so (why would they?).

Ironically in the desperation to open up the definition without stereotypes and biology to prove their point they also render it meaningless even for the men wanting to claim it for themselves. In a roundabout way they confirm the insanity of it all .

*transmen transwoman are

*transwomen

I mean, I keep pointing this out - I know men who're feminine, have since my teens. Now, do I have things in common with those men? Of course I do, or we wouldn't be friends, or have been lovers at one point. Do we share some sort of amorphous internal essence that means that I belong in the same demographic as them rather than in the one with all the women here, who probably don't share a lot of the interests that I do with those men? Not if you're going to call that demographic "women", no. If for women reason we need a demographic for "eyeliner fans" or "people who dye their hair interesting colors" or "people who get all wibbly about fluffy kittens" then fine, create a name for it and maybe I'll use it for myself when applicable. But I'll still be a woman, and my male friends who love makeup and clothes will still be men.

@TheSingingKettle49

‘Woman’ does not mean vagina, uterus, menstruation

Actually, it does. When I go to a job interview as a woman of child bearing age it is assumed that I have a vagina and uterus and that I menstruate, whether I do or not. The law recognised that I might be discriminated against because I may get pregnant and take maternity leave or that employers have to pay to put sanitary bins in the loos because I may need them, or that I won’t be able to do the grunt work because despite being taller than the average man I am less strong, less able to carry heavy boxes etc.

Words matter, always.

yes TheSingingKettle49. You have nailed it.

Plus, how many times in my life was I asked 'so, when are you having a family?' or 'how many children do you have' when it was already 'against the law'? And I believe it is still flouted!

What language will protect us from this type of discrimination? or indeed as you suggest, putting into place accommodations needed for our sex? eg. lifting heavy objects. Dr Emma Hilton and her research partner has interpreted other studies (ones that have already been peer reviewed) and pulled together proof that women will never have the strength of transmen even with testerostone lowered and estrogen given. It is just not possible.

So, where does this leave this provision in law. Or do you say 'women' and the transwomen get the benefit of that provision as well by default...?

I am very concerned by gender balance being manipulated here by people who have had male socialisation towards education and gaining promotions taking 'women's' roles. Like Pippa Bunce.

I am open to suggestions on how to address this?

For whatever reasons.

It really is all just sexism, when you get right down to it. Stop trying to chuck people out of their sex class because they aren't Barbie or Action Man.

I honestly think the twaw, snd tmam narrative is actually harmful to people who are unconventional, and feel (or recognise) they don't fit gender stereotypes.

I could see teenage me being led down a very dangerous road, had I been born 15 years later. I struggled with being a young woman, dressed like a boy for a while, got my hair cut really short. Realised I was bi sexual for sure, and possibly a lesbian. Non of that made me a boy, though I'm sure plenty these days would disagree. Was self harming, and using a lot of drugs. Long story short, all that passed, I got my head round things. Had ds, and am now very happy to be a woman and comfortable in my own skin. Boys and men should be able to dess/ present however they want, and not have other men tell them they aren't "real" men because of it?

Sigh.

Stock response: "So, what's the definition of woman?"

"I'm alright, Jack" over here will give you a definition you won't like:
A woman is a person who identifies as a woman.

Legality vs our vernacular do not always have to match, in my opinion.

But no one has addressed anything I said towards the end of my post.

If I believe trans women are women and believe they should be able to identify as "women" with certain legal caveats, am I still the enemy? Can you not get onto the discussion about sport, safe spaces etc with me because I fall at a stumbling block about words? Am I not welcome to discuss women's bodies and spaces because of my view about the word?

Would you want me in your midst?

Because I fear for the proliferation of your key messages if you turn away people like me.

You can discuss anything you like. What you can't do is force other people to agree with you.

But dont you see that in order for tw to be women you need to be able to define women or what are they transition to be?

So whatever side you are on, you cant identify as something you cant define.

So what is it.

Turn away people like me - ?

How are you being turned away?

"Yes, ‘are’. Because language is powerful and important and every individual has the right to claim their own identity."

Except females, who apparently do not get an identity separate from males.

"I still believe that the Average Joe on the street would pay more attention to your legitimate concerns (concerns I share) if you weren’t so caught up in semantics"

Except once you concede TWAW, what logical basis do you have for women only spaces? Not to mention, the average Joe does not think transwomen are women, what world do you live in? The average Joe is on the side of women here - humans don't want to pretend males can be women. Open your eyes.

Pretty sure I would still reject gender identity even if I were a raging misogynist, I could never side with a movement so devoid of rational thought and reality.