TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

behaviours or feelings

Yes, you will. You don't magically stop being a woman if trans women are accepted, I find that an utterly bizarre thought process.
I'll still be a woman, just because they are too doesn't mean I'm not anymore.

You are missing the point. Changing the definition of Woman into something that includes males REMOVES the aspects of the current definition that describe me and replaces it with things that don’t. How can I be a woman when the word no longer describes me at all?

OP, Nellie

What is your solution for the women, whether because of faith, sexual abuse or DV can't be in a shared space with male bodied people? Is their loss of access to recreational activity, healthcare, refuges etc acceptable in order to be kind to trans women?

If biological women give up the term women where will they be able to freely discuss issues that only relate to their specific biology?

What do women call themselves if they don't identify with the definition of woman that is based on outdated stereotypes rather than biology and who equally don't identify as men?

Being kind and allowing self ID is not the solution. It puts both women and transwomen at greater risk of harm and means that sizeable numbers of women would have to accept a greatly reduced life.

I have yet to see any concern or compassion from those advocating that TWAW for those groups of women whose lives will be negatively impacted in order to make way for transwomen.

Exactly blobby

Thanks Thinking. It was a few years ago and it doesn't upset me any more.

I still don't have children, and was PMed by someone on here telling me I didn't deserve them. I laughed.

Fuck them and their womb envy.

prolefeed wow, thank you for sharing that. Truly awful that this is actually happening right now.

Oh I wish I had a pound for every time I've seen reproach on here for females getting cross and being less than absolutely sweet, kind, rational and nice.

Against the rape threats, death threats, endless screaming, abuse, doxxing, closing down of meetings, appalling misogynist and uncaring, brutal things said to females in very difficult positions, endless jaqing off here, endlessly trying to explain why females actually matter to people convinced that it is the natural order that females should sacrifice to protect vulnerable males.

I am sorry if your ability to think equally about the needs and rights of females and TW at the same time is dependent on female people never jarring your senses, but some of us have been at this for years, are a very long way down the road of defending the rights we're helping you introduce yourself to thinking about, and forgive us if at this point we're feeling slightly....

exhausted. demoralised. fearful. frustrated. ignored. uncared about. Subordinated. repressed. oppressed. Denied. erased. labelled. boxed. angry. pushed to breaking point. despairing. Bewildered. unseen. unheard

jangled.

Tired. Just plain tired.

You may want to link this to Rachel McKinnon's comments (can't remember if they were on radio or in an article, others will know the source) that homosexual females formerly known as lesbians, needed to 'learn to cope' with sex with biological males who identified as lesbians. Again implying that females should not feel entitled to enjoy sex and it is not about their pleasure or their equality of need and reciprocation: it's a social duty that should be provided as owed to males even if unpleasant to them. This is actually spoken, by a public figure, as if this is a sane thing to say about female people. It's Victorian to Medieval in where it places female people's equality and even equal humanity.

It is remarkably similar to the lefty d00dbro position during what they like to call the "sexual revolution" of the seventies. Because we had birth control available to us women should be willing to have sex with any man who wants to fuck her. They rarely took no for an answer then either.

This is the result of twaw and self id

twitter.com/beyvibezz/status/1277683712503799810?s=20

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

But It’s really no wonder women who try and ignite a dialogue about a hugely important polemic choose to just leave mumsnet

What I've said right from the beginning - that there's no wonder people don't usually engage or if they do they give up.

Why would women give up the entirety of Mumsnet just because the Feminism and Women's Rights board doesn't suit them? That seems self defeating.

I don’t think that position ever went away but the only two groups who are expressing it in public are incels and transactivists.

Although let’s not forget the medics who don’t care if women can’t orgasm or are concerned about lost libido but will prescribe numbing agents to women who find penetrative sex painful so their husbands can have sex on them.

A hypothetical situation to try and illustrate why the definition of 'woman' matters:

Two people apply for a job - a woman named Sophie and a trans woman named Stephanie (formerly Stephen). The hiring panel is aware of the need for more diversity in the team and is keen to hire a woman in an otherwise male-dominated environment.

Both Sophie and Stephanie are equally qualified.

Stephanie gets the job. One of the panel members thought that Sophie might get pregnant and go on maternity leave 'and at least we know that won't happen with Stephanie '. Another used to play golf with Stephen a few years ago at an all-male golf club and the two always got along well.

The panel congratulate themselves on how progressive they have been in hiring a woman.

Has Sophie been the victim of sexism?

You don't magically stop being a woman if trans women are accepted, I find that an utterly bizarre thought process.

Acceptance of trans women does not depend on classification. Human beings have value because of their humanity, not because of their sex.

However, the sex based rights that women need to access human rights do depend on clear classification of sex. Without any clear definition of 'woman' I will still be a woman and it will still be possible to discriminate against women, either overtly or by simply ignoring sex. (See Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez). There just won't be any legislation or data to protect sex based rights and services.

Love you vipers, this thread made me cry. (Maybe too much , dunno). So much understanding of that thing that really means "woman". So many examples of how women are used, erased, hated, mocked, and fucked up. And yet no hating or mocking back. Great thread.

I’m supremely irritated by the ‘not hanging around to argue with meanies’ quitters. Jeez. I spent bloody years on here arguing for poor vulnerable men’s rights against Dittany. Get some fecking stamina.

@prolefeed

I’m supremely irritated by the ‘not hanging around to argue with meanies’ quitters. Jeez. I spent bloody years on here arguing for poor vulnerable men’s rights against Dittany. Get some fecking stamina.

I came here to tell you off for how you hurt my friend Dittany. Then AAK showed me the Sparticus thread and I decided not to bless you out.

Apologies for the merail.

Two people apply for a job - a woman named Sophie and a trans woman named Stephanie (formerly Stephen)

If Stephanie is actually called Hayley, and has a rare condition and is one of the maybe 4000 people who it was thought would benefit from the 2004 GRA, I don't think anyone on MN really cares.

The problem is that in 2020, its not clear whether Stephen would have to do more than declare pronouns to be recorded as female.

@prolefeed

I’m supremely irritated by the ‘not hanging around to argue with meanies’ quitters. Jeez. I spent bloody years on here arguing for poor vulnerable men’s rights against Dittany. Get some fecking stamina.

You're a braver woman than I ever was. I used to lurk on those threads and quiver.

Oh and re Muslim girls/ women and gyms. See also girl guides. Who are so desperate to be seen to be inclusive to males that they are willing to exclude their current Muslim members. Include males. Exclude a section a females. In priority terms, males always, always are more important. Oh, and as a side note, the NSPCC stated there were no safeguarding issues with regard to transgirl teenagers sharing tents with female teenagers overnight. And you aren’t allowed to disclose to parents that their 14yo is in mixed sex tenting.
I would also be sacked from girl guides if my penchant for teaching young women self confidence, biology, and the right to say no was ever highlighted. So far so good, unlike Helen and Katie.

If TWAW but you believe that womens sport shouldn't include transwomen, but we're not allowed to call them transwomen, then how do we phrase that to keep womens sport a womens sport?

In day to day life I have no problem using the preferred pronouns for my fully transitioned transman colleague. However, legally I do think that we need a difference to be able to protect single sex where it matters. By saying TWAW and nothing else you make this impossible in my understanding, do you have a solution for this?

Please add orthodox Jewish and Jehovah's Witness to the Muslim women that this may affect. Not all, but some.

Also some women with Autism - a number of MNetters have shared their personal experience here. Women with dementia and Alzheimers.

And women who have been traumatised, have PTSD, have been sexually abused.

There are many others. Not least those who will just be scared, embarrassed and will quietly give up on having smear tests if they can't have a female hcp, won't use public loos, won't use gyms or yoga or swims where they would have gone to the women's only one, won't stay on hospital wards overnight.

Do too have a chat to the MNetter, a remarkable woman, still I believe living rough in a tent somewhere because there was no female only refuge available to her.

Why can't these females have female needs met any more? Why must they lose access to services and public life?

When I see all these people on twitter saying “TWAW and I don’t mind sharing my spaces with TW” it just reminds me so much of the people who tell a racist joke and follow it up with “it’s ok because my friend is black and he doesn’t mind”

Re trans rights, I think its also important that gender fluid Stephen who appears to be gender conforming, can tick both the trans and woman boxes.

Hayley, who in real life is less likely to pass than a character in a soap played by a female actress can continue to suffer discrimination at interview while the imaginary company happily ticks its diversity boxes.