TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

(And that's the generous interpretation.)

You're braver than I am, Ereshkiga!

I appreciate all of the patience (and kindness) shown by all the women of this board, when they've heard these same assertions, complaints and weak arguments so very many times. I'm amazed at how so many are willing to engage, still, when people come on and blurt out slogans, and insults.

Fairly sure I came on and talked a lot of shit disagreed with some parts of the gc argument to begin with. And got burned a bit because of it, but also got stunned by the facts presented. And continued to check things, and still do.

The thing is that one side of this argument is an emotive one - 'be nice' - 'do what we say or you're a bigot' - and the other is based on evidence, facts, data and statistics. It's quite uneven - I suppose when one approaches an argument on the level of emote and is met with factual responses, it is quite a jarring cognitive shift. And seems to often produce a strong emotive response. Can be quite unpleasant; doesn't affect the facts of an evidence-based argument.

to all of you lovely vipers. You're a stellar bunch.

I read on here but don't generally post but your thread looked like a good opportunity.OP can I ask as the parent of a young person who I believe has ROGD after becoming involved online with a group through online gaming. If I, as a woman, (with breasts and vagina who has given birth) chop off my hair, wear typically male attire and call myself Bruce am I still a woman or am I a man? Dd argues I am a woman because I feel like a woman where when she wears male attire (she already has short hair) and refers to herself by her preferred male name she says she is a man because she feels like a man. How do you or my daughter or any of us know what the opposite sex feels like?
So if you too consider I am a woman even if I chop off my hair wear typically male attire and call myself Bruce; is someone with a penis and fake breasts and wearing make up and a skirt a man or a woman? Thank you

I know that feeling. I've stepped away for weeks before because this is just draining.

It's because we care about women's rights that we do this. And it can make you snappy (well it can me). I don't want to have any engagement with this. I'd far rather bury my head in the sand. But I can't, because I feel I have a moral responsibility to women more vulnerable than myself, and for my daughter.

I really do wonder why people think Rowling has done this. She will have to have seen what the costs were likely to be. Glinner, too. And so many less well known people. All taking a stand and risking a lot, just because they think it's the right thing to do.

And yet the claim is it's just hateful. It's tiring - I've supported trans rights all my adult life. I still do support them and some also us (there's a lovely poster on this very site who supports us, and is trans, in fact - and more on Twitter). Respecting women's rights doesn't mean you don't respect trans rights. It just means you won't allow women's rights to be harmed by trans rights. Yet even acknowleding that conflict exists leads to screams of rage, and total denial.

Sorry that was to Floral. I've had a bad week too and am so tired I'm seeing double.

I think if I was Rowling I might be thinking, well, very few women have the kind of power that she does. How can she use that power in a way that truly helps women and girls? Or that at least prevents further harm? She can't singlehandedly stop the sex industry or human trafficking or FGM, but she really could make a difference here by putting her thumb on the scales. Maybe that's why she did.

Exactly. If you believe everything (that has been proven to be incorrect) that a transwoman tells you, and refuse to engage with actual facts because women are saying them, you need to consider whether critical thinking is a priority to you, or whether ‘be kind’ at the expense of the female sex class is more important.
But it’s bloody hard to admit being wrong.
Op, if it helps, ten years ago I spent hundreds of hours on this board arguing with a poster called Dittany. I didn’t actually believe TWAW as such, but despite being what I considered a rabid feminist (me, not Dittany) I strongly felt that accepting tw dealing with gender dysphoria was the kindest thing to do.
These are different times. Women’s legal ability to exist as a sex based entity is at stake and our spaces are under attack. In Vancouver, acolytes of a trans politician have been targeting the only rape refuge left that does not accept tw. Despite the fact that every other refuge in the city accepts males (so yes, a tw rape victim has lots of places to access support), they have had their funding removed, been subject to a long running legal campaign to force them to accept a male as a rape counsellor, and had dead rats nailed to the doorways of properties hosting support groups for rape survivors.
This is not men asking women to ‘be kind’. This is about men demanding that women give up their rights to any sex based space (health, prison, sports, fucking rape crisis refuges).
I was you.
And here we are.
I was... well, more female conditioned to look after what I had been told were the most vulnerable, than I was prepared to admit. Female socialization is extremely powerful. And I knew that. Somehow I was arguing against ALL the stereotypes and STILL twisting myself in a knot to say ‘aw, what’s the harm - so vulnerable.’
Admitting that you haven’t actually really definitively thought it all through and taken your ‘desire to be kind’ to the logical conclusion is bloody hard.

@wellbehavedwomen

The problem is, none of the 'facts' are correct.

I decided to do as the OP has, which is why I sympathise with her. It's really hard to wade in and be shouted down, even when you are right. Fortunately for me, I eagerly went away and fact checked all your horrible mean lies about how trans murders, suicides, abuse etc isn't worse than women's (and in many cases infinitely better) and that it wasn't true that trans women have male rates of offending (NOT worse, I always feel that needs stressing in justice to the many reasonable trans people who are as WTF about TRAs as we are). But you were all absolutely right. Your stats were right. Mine, which are endlessly repeated as, "facts", were cobblers.

Like many women, actually going and looking all this up - primarily from the sources given for the stats on the TRA sites, but actually bothering to look at the original sources they cite - was what shifted my thinking.

That and the absolute impossibility of saying what a woman is, if you remove sex and stereotypes from the equation.

But it IS hard, for someone to come here and bravely post a defence of a position all around her have assured her is correct, and be met by dozens of women pulling on all the loose threads. It will absolutely feel like bullying, to be isolated and argued at that way. I can see why she's upset. Her intentions were good, even if her facts aren't.

My first post in this section was about 'cis privilege' in about 2012.

After I got my arse comprehensively handed to me I started reading around and realised all the meanies were right.

@wellbehavedwomen

maudspellbody

Crossposted. You said it way better.

I really didn't!

I love your description of coming to the position you are now in. I think people need to see that it is a journey. I would hazard a guess that most of us started from an inclusive position - and believed when we were told how oppressed the trans community are.

It doesn't take long to change positions when you really look deeply into the facts.

There is no shame in changing your mind on this issue. Although she doesn't know it, I think the OP is not as far from our position as she thinks she is. Certainly a lot of what she has said would be derided as transphobia in some circles.

It's all a journey and I'm endlessly grateful to the vipers for discussing it so intelligently.

What is this characteristic, quality, or attribute you are labelling "women"? What is it you are pointing at when you use the word?

This is an excellent question.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space

If you read the Trans Day Of Remembrance lists - which I have done - you will realise the vast majority are sex workers in south and central America

Actually I looked at a page that said how many transwomen had been murdered around the world during a period of years, and the figure for Mexico was maybe 80. Overall, we had 250,000 murders during that same particularly horrible time, which meant that transpeople are actually the safest demographic in Mexico, safer than being a young child.

As for suicide statistics, a lot of protection for vulnerable young gender non-conforming children is thrown out the window when we give in to the TWAW lobby. TRAs happily break every rule in the book about the treatment of suicides in MSM, encouraging young people to attempt suicide when they don't get their way.

what disappoints me is that I backed away from my first snarky post and said I was being harsh and have tried to engage with the OP, but she ignored my other reasonable and really gentle replies and only mentioned me when she wanted to accuse me of twisting her words

Floral, it's disappointing when someone seems to want to discuss things reasonably, even maybe listen and learn. Then at the first utterly predictable hurdle they flounce off.

Billi sounds very young, possibly a student, and therefore not used to having her beliefs questioned. The world's not a safe space, but adults are encouraging them to put their hands over their ears and say "not listening" rather than giving them tools to deal with it. Cults are warmly welcoming to young people looking for a cause, so Billi feels very loyal to these nice new friends. I could be totally wrong! but that's how it sounds to me.

The women on Mumsnet are on average older, with experience of the real world and, in many cases, of talking with teenagers. But to a true believer, kindness and patience aren't enough to make up for our original sin of disbelief.

@Thinkingabout1t

what disappoints me is that I backed away from my first snarky post and said I was being harsh and have tried to engage with the OP, but she ignored my other reasonable and really gentle replies and only mentioned me when she wanted to accuse me of twisting her words

Floral, it's disappointing when someone seems to want to discuss things reasonably, even maybe listen and learn. Then at the first utterly predictable hurdle they flounce off.

Billi sounds very young, possibly a student, and therefore not used to having her beliefs questioned. The world's not a safe space, but adults are encouraging them to put their hands over their ears and say "not listening" rather than giving them tools to deal with it. Cults are warmly welcoming to young people looking for a cause, so Billi feels very loyal to these nice new friends. I could be totally wrong! but that's how it sounds to me.

The women on Mumsnet are on average older, with experience of the real world and, in many cases, of talking with teenagers. But to a true believer, kindness and patience aren't enough to make up for our original sin of disbelief.

Very nicely put.

Where did we actually learn critical thinking?
I learned mine at home, with parents who had four argumentative and opinionated children. We ate round the table together and had rather fiery discussions about science, theology, politics, environment, sports...you name it, we argued over it, sometimes not because we disagreed but because we were expected to think things through. My Dad often had me argue my sister's position, and she had to argue mine, if they were different. We weren't allowed to shout or raise our voices, nor were we allowed to strop or stamp our feet, or make or take things personally. Honestly, in my opinion, the education system over the last 40 years has created a country of utter dummies. They're so fucked they don't even understand how fucked they are.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space

Could you post links to evidence please? I’d be interested.

My own experience working in a related field is We haven’t had a trans suicide or murder in the 5 years i’ve worked there. Plenty of men, women and children though.

I did check- and it appears uk suicide rates for trans people aren’t published by the ONS..

Even stonewall and mermaids can’t put numbers on it, they have stats for their own surveys on self harm and suicidal attempts, but no data on the % of trans vs general population.

So how do you conclude trans people commit suicide more than any other group?

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/suicideratesandtransgenderpersons

They're so fucked they don't even understand how fucked they are

Agreed.

Thanks, Maud!

@Billi77

I think it is great that you want to protect the vulnerable in society. And I understand that you believe that this is what you are doing?

Please consider that we are trying to protect the vulnerable as well. We are fighting for female only spaces for our underaged daughters, other underaged girls, ethic minorities, for women who have experienced rape or abuse or in other way are very vulnerable.

I highly doubt that a fully intact male, no surgery only self-ID as a female would go to an FWR conference and try to use the single sex female toilets. If so, most posters here would be able to at least collectively handle that.

An 11 year old girl might not be able to handle that in a swimming pool changing room. A rape victim may not want to be examined by a self-ID trans woman. A vulnerable female prisoner is unlikely to want to be sharing a cell with a self-ID, fully intact male.

We are also defending the vulnerable. Both categories can be protected. But not if they are put together in the same category.

Even stonewall and mermaids can’t put numbers on it, they have stats for their own surveys on self harm and suicidal attempts, but no data on the % of trans vs general population.

Also important to mention, gently, Stonewall and Mermaid's own surveys don't break down intersecting groups in their results.

Children who have Autism have higher rates of self harm and suicidal ideation and attempts.
Children who have experienced abuse or assault do.
Children with mental illness do.

It's known that these additional needs are very much over represented in the population of children identifying as trans. Why are the comorbidities not reported and statistics adjusted to be more accurate as to what is what and what compounds those figures to appear high? Let's be honest, it's because it reduces the impact and the PR effect in gaining sympathy and in attracting publicity, concern, public empathy, all of which increases donations . Which is the purpose of these organisations existing.

Also important to remember that children with anorexia have significantly higher rates than anyone else at all. And yet no one's rushing around shouting and fundraising for that.

Tentative response here, I've read a lot of the thread, but not TFT (I'm sure I'll have missed something important, but here goes...)

@bunpot
@Annoyedatyourbs
@lemonadeanddaisychains
@LokiOdinson
@Billi77

From what I've read, you are the only voices here in nearly 500 posts saying TWAW (sorry if I've missed someone). It is so difficult to have a nuanced debate here - not because the people who post here are uniformed or unintelligent, but because there are so few voices on that one side. I've tagged you in the hope that perhaps if four or five people engage at once, there might be an opportunity for something more than one way traffic.

I posted here a couple of times a few years ago - first when I had no knowledge of the trans/GRA debate (got a short, sharp shock) and then when I had educated myself a bit. I still believe TWAW.

It was very difficult to engage here with that view, as I was alone. I was told that saying TWAW made me an enemy, that I couldn't be a feminist. Even though I respect many of the issues discussed here, I am passionate about the continued fight for equality, safety and our lives, I empathise with those who have suffered at the hands of someone physically bigger and stronger than them and I know that terrible individuals (trans or otherwise) commit terrible crimes against women.

But just saying 'TWAW' made me an enemy. Tried to post a bit, couldn't stick it. Maybe that makes me weak or lacking conviction, but I think most people would eventually back out from a 1 vs 100 argument. It is not disrespectful to say that's what goes on here - it's a fact.

Naturally the OP's post was met with challenges to debate, but here that means 100 voices to his/her 1 voice. Many challenged her/him to "debate properly". But many said things like:
"Read the OP and just thought "bless"
"No stamina"
"you believe in fairies"
"you're goady"
"I'll get the popcorn ready"

I know a post-and-flounce OP doesn't foster productive debate, but do these early responses? Particularly when Billi77 was a lone voice at the time.

I'm finding myself a bit homeless in this conversation:
It's possible to love JK Rowling, but believe that her essay contributes to a terrifying climate for trans women.
It's possible to believe that a debate about women's spaces is valid, but using Karen White as an argument contributes to violence against trans women.
It's possible to believe TWAW, but believe trans women shouldn't be able to compete in cis women's sport.
It's possible to understand science, sex and chromosomes, but still say TWAW*.

Are these views that I should take elsewhere? Could I speak to AND listen to the very clever women (and men) here, without being sarcastically patted on the head and congratulated for being "nice" and "woke" ? (Side note, it's not always gender-expectations about being 'nice' when someone expects you to have some manners. If you're rude, expect to be told)

I want to take my seat at the table of this debate, but I've tried and failed before. If this isn't the place (and Twitter definitely ain't!), can anyone recommend a forum with a better balance of GC/TR views?

Respect to ALL (unless you include detailed descriptions of "Karen White" shaving their balls in your discourse, while pretending to care about the feelings of sexual abuse survivors. YOU do your side of the debate a disservice)

Am I barking up the wrong tree?
Am I an enemy here?

*Someone might (will) ask what I mean by this. I know we can't change chromosomes, but I believe trans women are women (and trans men are men). This is because language has power and everyone has the right to own their own identity and how they label themselves. Does it mean they were born female? NO. Does it mean the debate about women's spaces and sport should be silenced? NO. Does it mean that in a medical/scientific setting their birth sex is irrelevant and should be erased? NO.

But can we call TWW? Fucking yes. Why the hell not? Maybe if we gave up a bit of language, we wouldn't have to give up all the rest? Surely, we want to align ourselves as allies with the 99.99% of trans people who pose zero threat and sympathise with the legitimate feminist debate. Maybe if we could all be women together, we could move the debate along and come to some solutions?

....Go on, I can take it...

Let's be honest, it's because it reduces the impact and the PR effect in gaining sympathy and in attracting publicity, concern, public empathy, all of which increases donations .

Sorry, really bad grammar, trying to put tea on the table at the same time. That should read:

Let's be honest, it's because to break it down and be honest would reduce the impact and the PR effect in gaining sympathy and in attracting publicity, concern, public empathy, all of which is crucial to donations .

How does being honest about the Karen White disaster increase violence against TW?

How does hiding the Karen White disaster and airbrushing it away, help protect other female people from suffering the same fate Karen White's victims did?

Nellle Thank you for entering the debate.

So are you suggesting that saying that TWAW is just something we do out of kindness but should not be legally recognised as such? Because, if this is set out as a legal reality how do you square that with women's sports being confined to cis-women?

How does being honest about the Karen White disaster increase violence against TW?

This violence is being perpetrated by ......?

Well its not us is it. Why does men being violent towards TW mean we cant talk about the issue of male born rapists being put in womens prisons.?

Wouldnt you be better off taking it up with, you know, the violent men?

I know we can't change chromosomes, but I believe trans women are women (and trans men are men). This is because language has power and everyone has the right to own their own identity and how they label themselves.

Can you expand on this a bit more? What attributes do transwomen share with women which means that you think it is appropriate to say 'transwomen are women', but not 'transwomen are men'?

Language does have power, and if we say that some men can be women, then what is a woman?