TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

Karen White should never have entered a womens prison.

This is gatekeeping, OP. Not all "trans women are women" to you. What are these gatekeeping rules, so we can all use them?

And never any explanation of how, if we as a society are going with TWAW as a position, we're going to keep the Karen White's out of women's spaces.

Because they will be straight in there.

Not respecting boundaries is my number one red flag. Any male person who enters women's spaces without our consent is violating our boundaries.

Yep. I honestly don't care what men get up to in their own homes as long as it doesn't involve hurting other people. It's the attempt to remove the right of other people not to participate that raises all the red flags in the world.

To put it simply, the male people most insistent on accessing women's spaces are exactly the people who all the rules about those spaces were designed to keep out in the first place. Decent male people accept "no" when they hear it.

I haven't bullied you or twisted your words. I've addressed your own words and asked you to think through what you are actually claiming when you say TWAW and suggest that a TW can be in a female prison as long as the TW hasn't raped anyone. You seem to define TWAW based on sincere desire. As TW are male, I'm suggesting that your position means that a male must simply sincerely desire women's provision and identity, and that male is a TW. That's not twisting your words, it's just asking you to think about what your words mean beyond thinking you are being compassionate.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

I was the same EdgeOfACoin I used to lurk on these boards for ages readigg debates like these, back when I didn't really know much about it. I thought that since so many people were saying TWAW including major organisations and government bodies, that someone would be able to answer the question "what is a woman? How do you define it to include TW" But no one ever has, nothing that isn't circular anyway. I was so shocked because its such a foundational question in the whole debate, but eventually I realised that no one actually has an answer and this whole thing is just completely faith based. All I've ever wanted from these debates is for people to state clearly what they believe and why, and be willing to define the terms they're using - same as I expect when I debate theists. But they never do.

It really just drives home to me how desperate humans are to cling to these dualistic belief systems. That there can't just be physical bodies in a physical world, there has to be these souls or identities or essences that are the "real us" and these get "born into" our bodies like a sort of animating force and are the only true and meaningful things about us. It's no different to a theistic soul belief in that regard. However there isn't (yet) any connected beliefs about a higher entity/diety that gives us these "identities", and I haven't heard anyone arguing for the idea that they go on after we die, so I think it's probably closer to the never defined concept of "spiritualism" rather than a true religion, where people will say things like "I just feel like there's something more out there" and have ideas about spirits getting "trapped" or reincarnated. I expect within the next decade or so for this to all develop into a more mature theological framework with some more defined tenants and texts attached to it. Hopefully at that point we'll be able to classify it along with the other religions and beliefs and include it in the curriculum (if we must) under RE rather than science or PSHE. I have yet to hear an argument from TRAs that I haven't heard in some form from religious apologetics. It's actually really fascinating.

Which is all actually enormously ironic given the energy put into claiming that ‘terfs’ are aligned with far right Christian fundamentalists and that sex is a ergo a suspect belief because it’s religious hardline. More DARVO.

Sigh.

Reasonable questions, pointing out of reality, civil attempts to engage and reason this out.

But disagreement and questioning is perceived as 'bullying' and 'attacking' and doing wrong.

So the only way female people can do right is to shut up, put up, suck up the collateral damage and hide the bits of reality that don't fit the lovely happy ending? Because no. Because male supremacism isn't a lovely thing and there really isn't a happy ending involved for anyone.

And that is what this boils down to, let's be honest.

The request is 'female humans please take the shitty end of the stick, smile, and cover up all the suffering this will cause females, because it's your social duty to make this work so males can be happy'.

It involves knowing exactly which sex everyone is. It involves heads people born with penises win, and tails, people born without penises lose. It's just good old millennium old sexism.

I'm sorry you feel bullied, Billi. I think most people here are happy to discuss these things with you. You already realise, I presume, that most of us disagree with you? Disagreement and asking questions is not bullying. I appreciate that it can be very difficult to argue a point when many other people are arguing a different point. Nobody likes to feel that they are unsupported and outnumbered.

And honestly, fair play to you, I wouldn't be going into a TRA group and saying 'transwomen are transwomen'. Largely because I'd be scared of death threats, doxxing, attacks, etc.

I would like to reassure you that the worst you're likely to come across on Mumsnet is some foul language and sometimes some rather complicated recipes. The board is moderated, and if anyone posts something that is victimising or aggressive, it's usually going to be deleted. I encourage you to report any posts that you think are doing so.

I'm amazed how often these statements end up with the default "boo hoo you're all bullies for not believing in my fairies" snivelling.

Such sexist claptrap. I'm ashamed of you OP.

If we're being perfectly honest I think that coming here, posting a goady OP, and then accusing anyone who poses reasonable questions of "bullying" you is abusive behavior. And TRAs do it over and over again.

Ok. Those supporting TW AW, do you then completely support these demands? Or, has this group perhaps gone too far?

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

Including this beauty:

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

Michelle I think what disappoints me is that I backed away from my first snarky post and said I was being harsh and have tried to engage with the OP, but she ignored my other reasonable and really gentle replies and only mentioned me when she wanted to accuse me of twisting her words, which I didn't and then she mentions bullying.

If I'm treating someone with enough respect to address their arguments, have backed away from thinking they are just on the wind up, and I'm still being called a bully, I'm not really sure what else to do. I'll probably end up snarking again, because I'm a very naughty woman who loses patience and doesn't perform feminine socialization well anymore.

I agree with scrimpshaw

I would no way go into a trans activist chat room and try to argue my position. Being shouted down and disagreed with is tough to take. The instinct is to look around for someone to come and defend you.

But the disagreement is not a personal attack. It's - in the main - an exploration of ideas.

So many women on this board have read a lot and thought a lot about this subject. They have their arguments down. They have the evidence at their finger tips. They can quote case studies and reports. They will leap on the holes in your argument because they've seen them so many times before.

But none of that is personal. It comes from a desire to question and educate. Some of us are desperate to have this debate with people who think TWAW. We want to understand.

It doesn't happen, though, because many don't have your courage to step into the fray and stay to hear it.

We scream into the void so often that having a real person willing to discuss it is very likely to feel overwhelmed.

Just think about what people have said, though. There is a lot of sense in it.

It comes back to the original question - what is a woman?

If you can't answer that, then why can't you? It is important. It really is.

The problem is, none of the 'facts' are correct.

I decided to do as the OP has, which is why I sympathise with her. It's really hard to wade in and be shouted down, even when you are right. Fortunately for me, I eagerly went away and fact checked all your horrible mean lies about how trans murders, suicides, abuse etc isn't worse than women's (and in many cases infinitely better) and that it wasn't true that trans women have male rates of offending (NOT worse, I always feel that needs stressing in justice to the many reasonable trans people who are as WTF about TRAs as we are). But you were all absolutely right. Your stats were right. Mine, which are endlessly repeated as, "facts", were cobblers.

Like many women, actually going and looking all this up - primarily from the sources given for the stats on the TRA sites, but actually bothering to look at the original sources they cite - was what shifted my thinking.

That and the absolute impossibility of saying what a woman is, if you remove sex and stereotypes from the equation.

But it IS hard, for someone to come here and bravely post a defence of a position all around her have assured her is correct, and be met by dozens of women pulling on all the loose threads. It will absolutely feel like bullying, to be isolated and argued at that way. I can see why she's upset. Her intentions were good, even if her facts aren't.

maudspellbody

Crossposted. You said it way better.

And honestly, fair play to you, I wouldn't be going into a TRA group and saying 'transwomen are transwomen'. Largely because I'd be scared of death threats, doxxing, attacks, etc.

I have done it, gone into a group where the moderators were sympathetic to the FWR position (so I didn't get banned) but most of the posters weren't, and argued for women's rights, and I got a lot more abuse than OP has. I expected to.

Decent male people accept "no" when they hear it

They do, kittens.

I should add that I never posted, because I fact checked you first!

But there but for the grace of God (and a pedantic love of good links) go I.

How is a trans woman a woman. The prefix trans should give you a clue. Trans woman = man that wants to be or claims he is a woman. You cannot erase women. The word woman is taken thank you.

I've just watched the wonderful 'Little fires everywhere' on Amazon (Fabulous series. It confronts how different women see the world from different points of view based on their life experiences).

In it is a great line where the black female lead says to the white rebellious teen struggling with her identity and her conservative mother. The teen had got into trouble for a cause she believed in and wasn't happy at the criticism she got for the way she championed the cause which she shares with the black mother and is surprised at the criticism.

The older female says words to the effect of 'if you challenge others, you have to be prepared to be challenged back'.

This thread really demonstrates the point of how younger people are not dealing with being challenged back by people who might well be people they expect to be on their side too.

You don't get to come on MN and challenge and then run off crying about being 'bullied' when people challenge and ask questions back.

Well honestly, I have gone to places where TRAs congregate and discuss their viewpoints and engaged them while being honest about my own position. I've done it at some risk to myself, too. It can be nerve wracking, I accept, to discuss something with people who you know already have firm opinions and a certain reputation.

Which is why I said I was too harsh after my first sharp comment and have tried to discuss respectfully thereafter. I understand that cornered, defensive response, and I'll probably continue to engage in good faith, because I'm actually passionate about explaining why women matter, but I've had a shit few days at work and I'm not glowing with appreciation for being accused of twisting words and bullying.

As a reaction it mostly makes me roll my eyes, honestly. It's childish.