TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

I agree with this position.

I'd like to know how GC feminists define being a women.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.

I am very welcome to other views and to learn why you believe what you do.

But at this time and in this moment I twaw

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.
Deserve their own space or women's spaces? Because you seem to contradict yourself. Also you are wrong about the death and suicide rate. If you look at the UK for example, women are far more at risk than TW. In fact TW are safer than non-trans people! www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.

So do I.

However I don't believe female people deserve to be stripped of single sex spaces, or ability to identify themselves as a sex class and have provision made for them as a sex class. Do you?

What are you going to do with the female people who are unable to enter a public space or access services when there is no female only protected space?

Why can't we add third gender neutral spaces to single sex provision and meet everyone's needs?

Annoyedatyourbs

I'd like to know how GC feminists define being a women.

Woman.
noun
an adult human female.

Female
adjective
of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Do TW meet this definition? I say not.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.

How does that make them women? It isn't true, either, by the way. But even if it was, what does it have to do with whether male people are women?

In fact TW are safer than non-trans people!

The only place in the world, percentage of population rate wise, where this is even in question is Brazil.

I am very welcome to other views and to learn why you believe what you do.

We believe what we do because it's the default view held by most people and I questioned until a few years ago, that you can't just become a woman by saying "I am a woman". Why do you believe that you can?

I'd like to know how GC feminists define being a woman

Oh come on.

It's a biological reality, adult human of the sex producing large gametes. It is the only thing every single biological female on the planet has in common.

Once you start into anyone who identifies as - the very need for the word identify means first that it is something they are not already in fact, and to identify as something has to mean there is shared established and factual meaning of the thing you are identifying as. Which is a biological female. To identify as a woman means in fact a biological male who would like to be seen as and treated as a biological female.

Which is absolutely fine, great, no problem whatever. Just please don't deprive adult human females of their services and provisions and needs and language and ability to group as a class in the process.

*unquestioned until a few years ago

The only place in the world, percentage of population rate wise, where this is even in question is Brazil.

And let's be real, that's because most transwomen in Brazil are HSTS.

Most transwomen in the UK are middle-aged, middle-class, white and male. They are very safe from violence.
Anyone who really cares about the death rate of transwomen would be pushing for research into the impact of cross-sex hormones on stroke risk, not berating and bullying women to let them into our spaces - but I suppose if your real agenda is berating and bullying women, you'll seize on whatever excuse presents itself.

And even if TW were the most vulnerable women aren’t a shield. Yes TW and TM deserve a safe space. It need to be their own though not women’s

Perhaps no trans women with a history of rape should be allowed into women’s prisons?

Leaving aside any other issue. My MTF ex never raped me. He got other men to.

Where does he stand on this weird scale?

And I see there's still no answer as to how we teach men/trans women about my lived experience as a female.

I'd like to know how GC feminists define being a women.

Ask me ex. He knows all about the struggles of being a woman. He fucking facilitated them.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.

How does any of this make them women? I live in America. Black men are at significantly elevated risk of violence here compared to most other demographics. Would that make them women too, from your perspective? Because that would be very silly, from my perspective.

And let's be real, that's because most transwomen in Brazil are HSTS.

Most transwomen in the UK are middle-aged, middle-class, white and male. They are very safe from violence.

YY exactly.

And let's be real, that's because most transwomen in Brazil are HSTS.

It's also because a lot of them are in the sex industry. You know, the same industry that the people who shout TWAW also shout SWERF at you if you try to point out how dangerous it is?

Yes, that empowering sex industry.

I think he support trans people need is different. Denying their reality doesn't help anyone. In fact I recently read an article by an older tran woman where she (yes I am happy to use preferred pronouns, it's polite) found she kept seeing her own maleness in her face and would get depressed. Eventually she found happiness by accepting she isn't a woman, she is a trans woman which is different. Saying trans women are women may be more harmful to them as they then feel like they are failing if they see hints of maleness in themselves. If we encourage more self acceptance of being trans maybe we'll see better mental health statistics for this group.

@Annoyedatyourbs

I agree with this position.

I'd like to know how GC feminists define being a women.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.

I am very welcome to other views and to learn why you believe what you do.

But at this time and in this moment I twaw

This is confusing.

Firstly, I don't think any GC woman would deny transwomen their own spaces. YMMV when it comes to our willingness to help them campaign for this, but I think we'd all support it in principle.

This would of course mean that transwomen would have no justification for attempting to use women's spaces, so everybody would be happy - except TRAs have repeatedly rejected this very sensible idea.

You are quite wrong about the risk of suicide etc, by the way.

I mean, after a while you start to get the mental image of a group of people who believe these interrelated things that it's only possible to maintain their belief in by refusing to engage with reality in any meaningful way, on account of reality refusing to conform to their ideology.

Yes. Cognitive dissonance in action.

I support trans women because their death rate , abuse rate and suicide rates are the highest compared to any other group and they deserve to be protected, respected and allowed their own spaces/ integration of space.

Can we have some British stats on this please?

Not just percentages but actual numbers it affects.

Cos 1% of the trans population versus 1% of the female population is something we should reflect on...

My understanding is that the murder rate of women in the uk is higher than the murder rate of transwomen anyway.

And the suicide stuff needs to be looked at in the context of whether there are underlying mental health issues and whether transition actually fixes the problem (which is questionable) or whether problems remain because denial of biology doesn't change biological issues.

Perhaps no trans women with a history of rape should be allowed into women’s prisons

So male people can be housed in prisons alongside women safely as long as they haven't raped any women beforehand? I think, respectfully, you need to work your suggestions to their logical end here. Risk analysis is based on groups. TW are male people, and male people as a group are categorically, provably, a huge risk to women as a group.

It's not the transness we wish to keep away from women, it is the males. This is why we ask TWAW believers to define terms. Because the 'Trans' bit is irrelevant in the contexts we care about. The male sex is the issue, and no male is a female/woman, whatever he feels inside, however nice and harmless.

So when you suggest that TWAW, therefore they should access everything a woman can, you are basically saying 'A man may take space from a woman if he sincerely believes he should be able to'. And I promise you many male people will agree with you, but it's not feminism by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd like to know how GC feminists define being a women.

I'm surprised this has to be asked, given the answer is usually only three words long and features on t-shirts.

An adult human of the female reproductive class is called a woman; an adult human of the male reproductive class is called a man. They come from the Old English wifman and werman which meant female-human and male-human respectively.

These words do not denote an internally-felt sense of identity, but an objective physiological reality. They're the human equivalent of word pairs like doe/buck or ewe/ram. They don't indicate anything whatsoever about an individual's preferences or personality.

Males effectively stole the word for human and made it their own while requiring females to retain a sex-denoting prefix a very long time ago; the parallel with the evolution from "women and transwomen" to "c*swomen and women" is remarkable.