TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

Perhaps no trans women with a history of rape should be allowed into women’s prisons?

Why?

What about women who have a history of assaulting women? Should they not be put into women's prisons either?

Where should they go?

What is the cut off?

Surely if TWAW as surely as WAW, then they should be housed in women's prisons?

I think the guidelines should be sex segregation as they currently are. Men are the more violent sex, and Transwomen continue to behave with male pattern aggression as they ARE male.

The sexes are segregated for a number of reasons not just safety but privacy andd dignity. Men and women have different physical needs and bodily functions.

85% of Transwomen keep their penises so not only are their bodies very different to the other women prisoners they have different functions.

There is absolutely no need to consider putting some males in with females, regardless how much some male people would feel more comfortable.

If you keep insisting that TWAW there will be another Karen White sooner or later.

Perhaps no trans women with a history of rape should be allowed into women’s prisons?

The Chief Executive of the Howard League, Frances Crook [I have] 'personally witnessed female prisoners visibly "intimidated" by a male-bodied trans inmate in their midst. "The trans prisoner was dominating the space and the women were round the edges," she said.'

Rhona Hotchkiss, SNP MP and former Governor of a women's prison, says the incidences of sexual harassment and verbal abuse from trans women to women were legion. That women in prison are an exceptionally vulnerable cohort, most of them terrified of men.

Why would you want to put male people, convicted of an offence, in with women? Why? The link I gave suggested allowing the women a secret vote, which must be unanimous, and would be regularly updated, to allow it. Why not do that?

Also, conviction rates from reported rapes are currently at 1.4%. Only an estimated 5% are reported, apparently. So realistically, the odds of putting a rapist in a prison who's just got away with it.. not low, when you get into the hundreds of prisoners.

There's also the issue that one in fifty men in prison now say they are trans. You'll end up with truly unisex prisons. Which is against international human rights law.

The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners states that 'Men and women shall so far as possible be detained in separate institutions; in an institution which receives both men and women, the whole of the premises allocated to women shall be entirely separate'.

But apparently if a man says, "I am a woman" then we can just forget about that. Even though it was instituted to protect incredibly vulnerable women from male violence.

I think this is a general microcosm of the problem.

People want to be kind and inclusive, but when the bigger picture is shown, they put their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and shout 'be kind, be kind, be kind'.

The reason that GC points of view are shouted down so loudly is because these people who want to be kind can't square the implications of it all with either their experiences of genuine, well meaning transsexuals or their inclusive mindset. It feels contradictory.

Yet it takes very little scratching beneath the surface to find the cracks.

And the 'be kind' proponents don't seem to be able to draw an adequate line. GC feminists can do it - it is biological sex. Woman begins and ends here.

TWAW folks seem to want to do that - they want to include Hayley Cropper, but exclude Karen White. If they can find a place to put that line I think we'd all be interested to see where it was and how it can be enforced - but it's too complicated. It can't be done.

And this would never have been an issue in the first place if this new movement hadn't sprung up to loudly claim women's rights. We wouldn't have needed to defend ourselves if we weren't under attack in the first place.

OP, can you please explain how Karen White is not a woman if TWAW?

Yes, I'd like an answer to this. TWAW is a belief statement. It means that any male who declares self a women, is a (trans) woman. So how is Karen White, a male who declared themselves to be a woman, not a TW? Or are you using some sort of special gatekeeping you're not letting on about?

Would you put trans women with no history of rape charges into male prisons?

Why should males be anywhere else? Lots of male people are more vulnerable than the general population. The solution isn't to force women to take them in. We're not everyone's support humans.

TWAW folks seem to want to do that - they want to include Hayley Cropper, but exclude Karen White. If they can find a place to put that line I think we'd all be interested to see where it was and how it can be enforced - but it's too complicated. It can't be done.

See, I think it can. You recognise that TW are TW and social inclusion is fine. But there remain single sex spaces, and groups, and provision. You expand the bandwidth of what it means to be human, by creating trans provision. You don't co-opt, colonise and dilute women's.

There's no reason trans lobby groups can't campaign for and fund that provision, and even an all trans shortlist or two for MP representation. For shelters, hostels, prisons, unisex additional facilities. I for one would support that and help. Misogyny and gendered violence and oppression is also a thing. But instead, the aim is to erase sex. And that harms women's interests, and we can't consent to it.

It's really that simple. The answer is to recognise different needs and to create additional provision. And let's be honest, they have SCADS more money than women's groups do. They'd get much better provision, with far less effort. The determination to co-opt ours, instead of creating more, is pretty obnoxious when there's insuffient for women as it is.

And plenty of trans people agree with the above. Though they get called Truscum for their pains.

There is a really simple solution to the issue of identifying dangerous TW from non dangerous TW when it comes to prisons. Don't put them in women's prisons at all. Why create additional rules where we have had one that worked OK until the likes of Karen White?

And that great intersectional 'feminist' Jameela Jamil deemed Karen White to be a woman so who are you to say Karen isn't OP?

Claiming that a TW is not a 'real' TW is classed as transphobia, you know? It's one of the reasons why we're called transphobic.

Another is because we don't believe TWAW. But then apparently, neither do you.

Billi it's great that you're willing to stick around and discuss this. Really, I enjoy discussing it and the chance to test out ideas, and admire you for sticking up for what you believe in.

Karen White was masquerading as a trans woman

Karen White seems to be fairly sure she is a transwoman. I don't think anyone can argue with that, unless you are going to apply some sort of test to work out who is genuinely a transwoman and who is 'masquerading'. I can't imagine how this would be done.

The trouble with trying to sort people into 'those with a rape conviction' and 'those without' is perhaps best illustrated by this article: www.theguardian.com/law/2019/jul/31/only-3-of-rape-claims-london-result-convictions-study-says

97% of rapes don't lead to a conviction.

would you put trans women with no history of rape in male prisons

No, you have to have no knowledge of how offences are prosecuted to believe that all rapists have been caught and convicted. Or that there is never a first offence.

@Billi77 How do mixed sex prisons benefit women prisoners?

Take it back a step.

How did Karen White successfully rape women in a mental health ward, leading to their imprisonment waiting trial? How did Karen White successfully sexually assault at least two women in a women's prison during that imprisonment?

Because when someone male identifies as a TW, under TWAW, they are given access to female facilities and to females. No one in the Karen White situation gave the faintest consideration to the females and their needs and feelings and risks in doing this, because of TWAW. White had a lovely time. The females have been left with the wreckage of trauma that will stay with them for a lifetime - because TWAW.

If your only way of identifying which TW shouldn't be in female facilities is to see how many females they harm.... well spot the major female rights issue?

White is as much a TW as any other TW. Because all that is necessary is to identify and to 'live as a woman'. White was doing this. White is in their own way vulnerable for several reasons and I agree that TW should not be expected to be housed in the male prison estate or for that matter a male mental health estate because their privacy, dignity, safety and identity matters. However for the same reasons, those male born people cannot just be dumped into the female estate with all the following impacts and losses of privacy, dignity and safety sucked up by females. There need to be safe third spaces available for trans people to have options if they do not wish to be accommodated by their sex.

This cares about everyone equally. This holds the values of privacy, dignity, safety, respect for identity for everyone equally. Everyone matters.

Billi, if you believe in self-id then Karen White is as legitimate a transwoman as anyone. Could you talk through your position on self-id, if it doesn't allow for this conclusion?

I would also add: even if the TW in a women's prison was the gentlest, loveliest person on the planet -

they are still a male person with a male body, and that fact alone removes female people's privacy, dignity and feelings of safety when they need to share a communal shower, or be locked up together in a cell for the night.

Some female people are lucky, which essentially does mean privileged enough, that this won't bother them. For some female people this will be unbearably distressing.

I suspect when it is a TW in distress, terrified about their privacy, their dignity, their risk of assault, their fear to be near someone they perceive as dangerous, you would be highly sympathetic. Certainly everyone should be.

However I suspect when it is a female person in that situation with those same feelings, your attitude and response to them is very different. You need to think about why.

See, I think it can. You recognise that TW are TW and social inclusion is fine
I don't know if you saw that video on Twitter of Danish trans woman who is legally female without making any other changes at all. They were complaining that they were still questioned on using women's changing rooms and said (I paraphrase) "It makes no sense that I am legally a woman but still get gold I shouldn't be in women's spaces". And do you know what? It was a lightbulb moment. It totally doesn't make sense that we legally recognise a change of sex where no real changes have actually taken place. TWAW can never work.

I suspect when it is a TW in distress, terrified about their privacy, their dignity, their risk of assault, their fear to be near someone they perceive as dangerous, you would be highly sympathetic. Certainly everyone should be.

However I suspect when it is a female person in that situation with those same feelings, your attitude and response to them is very different. You need to think about why.

All these people blindly saying "TWAW" do. Why don't women's feelings and needs matter?

Perhaps no trans women with a history of rape should be allowed into women’s prisons

So instead of prisons segregated by sex

It should be prisons segregated by crimes

@bishopgiggles

Billi, if you believe in self-id then Karen White is as legitimate a transwoman as anyone. Could you talk through your position on self-id, if it doesn't allow for this conclusion?

Yes, this.

Transwomen are transwomen and there's nothing wrong with that. They should be able to present themselves however they wish without prejudice or risk. What transwomen are not is women as such they need to be excluded from spaces separated by sex such as women's prisons and women's sports.

If they feel unsafe in spaces reserved for men such as men's prisons or mens sports they need to take that up with men. As a woman I would happily support their right to do so and campaign alongside them for safer spaces for transwomen.

billi

sticking up for what you believe in

Yes, that is commendable

Trans women are trans women.

I will happily state that they have a right to a life free of discrimination and fear, and am fully happy to throw my weight behind any and all campaigns to provide third option services and facilities that they need in order to live a full life.

What I won't do is allow myself and my fellow female to be used as human shields, or as extras in their performance of their fantasy version of feminine life.

Perhaps no trans women with a history of rape should be allowed into women’s prisons

The issue with this @Billi77 is they could equally be violent. A male body vs a female can do serious damage. What if the trans woman in question hasn’t raped but then does rape when in prison.

Prisoners are some of the most vulnerable women. Women of colour are disproportionately likely to be affected. They deserve to be safe and not made into a shield.

How many rapes is too many? Serious question. How many women are collateral damage before we admit TWAW is a lie.

A separate space is a good solution and most feminists would help and support the trans community with that. Colonisation of female spaces is not the answer

if you believe in self-id then Karen White is as legitimate a transwoman as anyone. Could you talk through your position on self-id, if it doesn't allow for this conclusion?

Even pink news had to amend their article after channel 4 fact check pointed out that jkr was indeed correct in saying that a man who had not altered themselves in the slightest could they a grc.

I think its becoming very clear that in the midst of mantras and wanting to be move and inclusive etc that they do indeed have no idea what it is they are really fighting for and that many of the twitter activists dont actually care about trans people, because if they did they wouldnt be egging them on to do stupid things like change their files at a drs surgery or withhold info from drs in hospital which has almost been fatal on occasion, they merely have seen a loophole that can be exploited. And this is something that actually women and trans people have been trying to point out.

Be kind and more inclusive

Stupid phone