New stonewall boss says she wants to defuse toxic trans issue

[Kit19]

And then you read the interview which is basically

The public are on our side
Just an admin change
Ppl don’t have to agree with and we shouldn’t try & force them too (just obvs let us do what we want)

Ok, 1) I don't believe her, and 2) the significant thing about that article is the open acknowledgement that Stonewall's views are analogous to religious beliefs;

"I'm really focused on the idea that we don’t have to convert everybody to our way of understanding gender,” Nancy Kelley said in her first interview since taking up the position as head of the UK’s leading gay rights charity. “For Stonewall to succeed, it doesn’t have to make people believe as it believes. What it has to do is make people support changes that make trans lives easier.”

They sure as shit work their little socks off indoctrinating kids in schools though, don't they? The difference is that parents can choose to opt out of that.

Where it's openly religious belief, I mean - they can't opt out of having their kids Stonewalled! And most have no idea that they even need to, if they disagree.

I think the majority of women surveyed (note - not the majority of women - an important distinction) are not aware of the conflation of transsexual/transgender that has taken place. Its a clever tactic. There's the assumption that someone identifying as a woman is on hormones, post surgery etc, not, for example, a bearded fully intact male identifying as a transwoman. They don't realise the ridiculous situation where cross dressers like Phillip /Pippa Bunce are winning women in business awards.

I’m sure she’s having cosy tea and scones with Stephen Whittle while they come up with the next phase of how to eliminate women’s rights without us noticing. They can maybe reminisce about the girl guides.

This seems like an obvious exercise in damage limitation. The government has made clear its commitment to single sex spaces and to not reforming the GRA. It's also made pointed comments about the number of identical responses sent in to the consultation that were engineered by lobby groups (by which it means Stonewall). More important, Stonewall's decision to conspire with the employer of a black lesbian woman to force her out of her job is now being challenged legally. Frankly, hounding a black lesbian is rarely a good look if you claim to be a charity promoting the rights of gay people.

Are people stupid enough to fall for it? We'll find out soon enough.

"I'm really focused on the idea that we don’t have to convert everybody to our way of understanding gender"

Except that those who do not comply with their understanding of gender will be driven out of jobs and public life.

I honestly feel Stonewalls days are numbered. They did amazing work promoting acceptance of LGB issues but the minute they knew their funding would dry up, so they took on the TQ+ they have become at odds with reality. They are nothing more than a mens queer rights movement....

If we "don't need to agree on what womanhood means", fine! The TRA lobby can stop trying to force the prefix 'cis-' on us and back off from telling us we don't know how to woman and how much better they do it.

Everyone can stop going into schools and confusing children with diagrams of Barbie and GI Joe and making them identify their spot on the gender spectrum based on how they like to dress and play and let them get on with being an infinitely varied and valuable bunch of unlabelled growing human beings who just need to learn how to get on and be respectful of each other.

And I was always and will always be happy to share a ladies loo with any gentle person who just wants to use the toilet, wash their hands and tidy their hair and it has never and will never bother me if they have an adams apple, size 11 feet and six inches more height than I can muster. None of this was ever a problem until the shouty TRA started acting like the MRA, bursting through the door yelling about their tampons and ther rights instead of sidling in discreetly like the rest of us do.

And I suspect most transmen and transwomen are probably hating all the shouting and fuss as much as the rest of us and just want to get on with being who they are in peace. The handful I know and count as friends or acquaintances certainly do and I would happily step between them and harm.

If the shouty brigade would just stop and listen a moment, they would find us allies - they just need to stop trying to erase women and control the language we use to talk about ourselves and recognise the blood, tears and struggle that have gone into winning the rights they want to commandeer. Oh, and stop threatening, insulting, labelling and disparaging people who mean them no harm.

"I'm really focused on the idea that we don’t have to convert everybody to our way of understanding gender,” Nancy Kelley said in her first interview since taking up the position as head of the UK’s leading gay rights charity

Good. Let us know when you intend to stop doing it.
And no, I don't actually believe her. They won't talk to LGB Alliance, so who will they talk to exactly?

mobile.twitter.com/ALLIANCELGB/status/1276899324220395520

"We reached out to #nancykelley as soon as she was appointed to congratulate her and to ask her to talk to us. Not even an acknowledgement. Ruth Hunt also maintained in public that she was open to dialogue. She too ignored all our proposals to meet and discuss our differences."

@Bluebooby

I wonder if the 83% who don't consider themselves transphobic are aware of what constitutes transphobia nowadays. I don't consider myself transphobic for the record, but I know that many of my views are considered to be.

Well I think that's the point there are in my (admittedly small compared some) experience very few truly transphobic attitudes around today but there are many many people who wouldn't ever consider themselves transphobic and genuinely want a world where everyone can coexist but who because they don't want their rights eroded would be classed as transphobic.

@EstherLittle

“What you see instead is that the overwhelming majority of people [83%] don’t see themselves as transphobic and don’t agree with transphobia. And the majority position around things like bathrooms is that women feel fine about it.”

I dont think it’s transphobic to want to keep bathrooms single sex.

What does she mean by ‘women’? Does she mean men?

This person couldn’t really not do a ‘Welcome to the new face at the helm’ type interview for the Guardian because that would be a personal and organisational profile missed opportunity.
The Guardian had to touch on some of these issues in their questions because the genie is already out of this bottle now.
The cynic in me suggests that now they have had their short media outing giving the party line, that they will go back to #nodebate.

What does she mean by ‘women’? Does she mean men?

Given that the word 'women' quoted there linked to an article by Owl Fisher, presumably she neither knows nor cares?

The cynic in me suggests that now they have had their short media outing giving the party line, that they will go back to #nodebate.

Given that Allison Bailey's crowdfunder was shut down today, #nodebate never stopped being the party line.

No chance. It's way, way too late for that.

That horse has not only bolted, but won the Grand National, thrown several jockeys and been sent to the knickers yard.

That should be knackers yard but knickers might be more appropriate

The only difference is the new attempt to put a reasonable gloss on #nodebate as a policy. The same old practices are in place, but where they can't silence people now, they are gaslighting, so it's actually terribly unreasonable for anyone to ask for an explanation for the changes they seek, and to ask what implications there may be for others.

#nodebate is first line of defence. #bereasonable has joined #bekind for any who are not succesfully silenced. Implication being, of course, that not allowing a hugely contentious lobby group carte blanche to upend societal understanding on what men and women actually are is just silliness.

@NearlyGranny

If we "don't need to agree on what womanhood means", fine! The TRA lobby can stop trying to force the prefix 'cis-' on us and back off from telling us we don't know how to woman and how much better they do it.

Everyone can stop going into schools and confusing children with diagrams of Barbie and GI Joe and making them identify their spot on the gender spectrum based on how they like to dress and play and let them get on with being an infinitely varied and valuable bunch of unlabelled growing human beings who just need to learn how to get on and be respectful of each other.

And I was always and will always be happy to share a ladies loo with any gentle person who just wants to use the toilet, wash their hands and tidy their hair and it has never and will never bother me if they have an adams apple, size 11 feet and six inches more height than I can muster. None of this was ever a problem until the shouty TRA started acting like the MRA, bursting through the door yelling about their tampons and ther rights instead of sidling in discreetly like the rest of us do.

And I suspect most transmen and transwomen are probably hating all the shouting and fuss as much as the rest of us and just want to get on with being who they are in peace. The handful I know and count as friends or acquaintances certainly do and I would happily step between them and harm.

If the shouty brigade would just stop and listen a moment, they would find us allies - they just need to stop trying to erase women and control the language we use to talk about ourselves and recognise the blood, tears and struggle that have gone into winning the rights they want to commandeer. Oh, and stop threatening, insulting, labelling and disparaging people who mean them no harm.

Beautifully put, thank you!

“We must come back to the basics of building empathy for the idea that we want our fellow humans to experience a dignified, positive life,” said Kelley. “And there are things that as a society that we can change to make that more likely.”

Dignity should include allowing women their own spaces. Women's dignity is as valuable. Girls' dignity is as valuable. Giving away others' dignity is not positive. Taking away religious women's ability to access female only public spaces is downright negative and completely lacks empathy.
And finally, issuing rape and death threats to anyone voicing dissent is neither dignified nor positive.

We must come back to the basics of building empathy for the idea that we want our fellow humans to experience a dignified, positive life,”

Empathy is a two way street, involving reciprocation: it isn't just about empathising with your special chosen group. Dignity and positivity have to be values you hold for everyone, not just for your special chosen group. Otherwise saying this kind of thing makes you sound like a rampant hypocrite without the self awareness to realise the irony everyone else is picking up on.

I can never get over how appropriate that flag she posted on Twitter is. Visually speaking it's the T and associated letters aggressively invading the LGB. You have to assume that people like Kelley know perfectly well how that looks and think it represents their goals well.

I made a post too about this earlier on today. I am sceptical but it's going to be an interesting to see any changes.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3951220-The-Guardian-Stonewall-again

@OvaHere Moral panic? Jesus. What an incredibly reductive comment about our concerns. She might as well have thrown 'hysterical' in as well.

We must come back to the basics of building empathy for the idea that we want our fellow humans to experience a dignified, positive life,”

Women and girls require sex segregated spaces in order for experience dignified, positive lives, which is why building them in places where they don't currently exist is a UN development goal.