PCs suspended over photos of murder scene

[Lettera]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53185177

Men. They never disappoint.

What other social groupings that have been systematically denied privileges, denied fair access to education, experienced family stresses and pressures to the extent that one third of their children are being brought up by lone parents, are over-represented in deprived socioeconomic groups and are embued with low aspirations across generations were you thinking of Justhadathought?

I do agree with you that the social culture around the expectations of masculinity in the police force, that officers can treat even dead women as pieces of meat, is very likely a factor in the officer's behaviour.

Utter rubbish about the masculinity in the police being a factor in the officers taking the photos.

The two officers lacked integrity and empathy which the majority of officers have.

The stereotyping of police on this thread is awful.

I am sure that if it was reversed and there was stereotyping of black females or black youths there would be up roar.

Let's see what happens when the killer gets caught and their identity.

What other social groupings that have been systematically denied privileges, denied fair access to education, experienced family stresses and pressures to the extent that one third of their children are being brought up by lone parents, are over-represented in deprived socioeconomic groups and are embued with low aspirations across generations were you thinking of Justhadathought

White working class people. Irish people in England. And also certain other ethnic groups.

I live in Liverpool, I don't need to be told about low aspiration, inter-generational deprivation, compounded by cultural values and expectations which are contrary to success in mainstream culture.

I also used to be a teacher, and I saw that some ethnic groups were more prominent than others when it came to educational success & aspiration. Arabic, Chinese, and certain Asian groups, but not so many black pupils. What do you think it might be that holds black pupils back? Do you really think it all about 'structural prejudice' and lack of opportunity? Or might there be some socio cultural effects?

I do agree with you that the social culture around the expectations of masculinity in the police force, that officers can treat even dead women as pieces of meat, is very likely a factor in the officer's behaviour

Nice try! But both you and i know we are talking about cultural expectations of masculinity in some black communities.

I've just finished watching the Netflix documentary about R J.Kelly and his abuse of young girls ( & how he got off with it).....and it would seem that there is a deep cultural expectation that black women are meant to prioritise their blackness over their femaleness, even at their own expense.

Just because you don't agree with a view doesn't make it rubbish waitrosequeue.

There were 1, 491 complaints about sexual harassment, exploitation of crime victims and child abuse recorded against the police in England and Wales over approx 5 years.

In the context that police forces were extremely reluctant to respond to FOI requests to put this data in the public domain, and that 10 forces just didn't reply, and that crimes under the sexual offences act are known to be under reported.

371 upheld. 197 police officers, SCs and PSCOs sacked or resigned.

It was only in 2017 that officers could be found guilty after they had left the force. Before that, officers could just go quietly knowing that they were off the hook of any investigation.

No, I wasn't Justhadathought. See my post above. I was talking about the toxic masculinity within the police force.

The people who have done something extremely wrong in this case are the perpetrator and the police officers who took the photos.

If deprivation etc is to do with 'certain other ethnic groups' then it's racism, clearly. If some ethnic groups are more failed than others by the education system, it's also racism.

Or are you saying that their disadvantage is the fault of black people?

Because that's also racism.

I think this case and the photos has been reported quite a lot on the tv news but not so much in the papers .

It has been reported as being racist . Unfortunately this kind of thing has been going on for a while ( in appropriate photos) and is not necessarily racist.

I can think of one case in the 80s where it is reported to have happened but as there was no SM then it was hidden.

In this case I Can’t understand how the officers thought it would go unnoticed.

I hope this is not swept under the carpet .

@averysuitablegirl

No excuse for that happening but what is that no percentage wise of the total contact with police in over 40 forces in a 5 yr period ?

Police can't win at the moment. They are getting criticised from all areas. The majority of officers do an excellent job in very poor conditions and out there life on the line.

There has always been bad apples. Bad apples in every profession.

The two officers have disgusted the public , police colleagues currently serving and those retired.

People who slate police have very little understanding of their day to day work and conditions.

'The screaming did result in a police presence. The screaming happened at 1.08 p.m. on 7th June. It wasn't contemporaneous with their deaths which happened it's estimated at around 2a.m on 6th June.'

This post puts the screaming at after the murders?

Anyway not the point.

No police won't attend for screaming in London.
No police won't attend for missing adults.

That is how it is.

The mum's read of the tone in response should not be disregarded. People know when they are being fobbed off etc. Where you live has a massive impact on the response you get. It's always valuable to think about the police in terms of who are they really working for.

Compare the coverage of this to the young woman who was randomly stabbed to death while having a picnic fairly recently. Very different. And I live in London so get the news here etc.

2 sisters randomly stabbed to death definitely got much less attention in the press than the girl who was killed.

Attention increased with the news about the pictures.

ultimately, it is more about deprivation, lack of education and a value system which is deeply embedded, generational, and contrary to success in the mainstream culture

What complete bollocks - this is just the sort of racial and class stereotyping that actually re-inforces discrimination, but among others teachers.

Your statement implies that unless people perform to your social norms, they aren't achievers.

And the ultimate guilty person - the single mother.

Has it ever occured to you that having a teacher that thinks like you is so demotivating they cant be bothered.

And as for: This culture is not unique to young black men, although there certainly seems to be race specific ( & geographical) cultural patterns. is to my mind racist.

Just shocking lazy stereotyping thinking. I would be horrified to think any child or grandchild of mine would have you as a teacher.

'In this case I Can’t understand how the officers thought it would go unnoticed.

I hope this is not swept under the carpet .'

It was by luck that they misjudged the audience on the watsapp groups and someone reported it.

What had been posted up to that point, that they thought this was ok?

Please don't minimise these abuses of power as a small percentage and 'bad apples' waitrosequeue.

These are only the reported cases that the police would own up to. Nearly a quarter of forces didn't respond to the FOI requests.

It's horrific for victims of crime when the crimes against them, especially committed by those in a position of responsibility, are minimised.

Please, just don't.

And I'm getting really pissed off with this, oh black people in London are some kind of special case when it comes to criminality.

If we're talking drug dealing, violence, dangerous gangs...

Around here the drug dealers are white.
Violence... Pub violence, fights on the street, remember football hooligans? Round here. White.

Serious gang stuff.. well I know a few people who've been in prison. All white. The stuff around modern slavery, from what I've read seems to be groups that are not black.

In our area over the years the hatdcore gang stuff, the guns, knives, serious violence etc has been people from the UK or Eastern Europe.

In the news when it comes to criminal gangs, like the people who trafficked girls around the country, or the people who lured people over here and took their passports and enslaved them etc. Round here. Not black. I'm in London.

IF the police stopped all the young white men in fancy cars round here then they would find all sorts of stuff.

But they don't.

And that is the problem with stop and search and saying oh well black people = gangs, stabbings.

In my experience black people including young men are more likely to do things like offer seats on the tube, help if you are in trouble. That is what I have found.

The idea that black communities (what does that even mean) are more violent etc then others is straight up racist.

When you go to hosp or someone you know is in care or needs care at home, or an office needs to be cleaned, who is doing it? Round here, disproportionately black women.

On this thread we've had, black people are disproportionately criminal, hence stop and search
What does that have to do with these two women being murdered?

They were maybe at an illegal gathering
What is the point of that comment?

I have personal experience of the police treating you differently depending on their assumptions about 'who you are'
And I'm a white, middle class woman.

The met have had so many incidents of failing victims, lying, investigating the victim instead of the reported crime, corruption, racism, Viber cover ups etc. And still people say 'oh well you can't prove that these photos which were totally awful have anything to do with the fact the victims were black and female'.

I suppose if you don't think that, if you honestly think they would take selfies with a white man who had jumped off a bridge, or a child who had been raped and murdered, or a grandmother who had been beaten to death, then that's an even bigger problem. Don't you agree?

If deprivation etc is to do with 'certain other ethnic groups' then it's racism, clearly. If some ethnic groups are more failed than others by the education system, it's also racism.

Just racism? From who?

How do you explain the differences in educational attainment between, say, Afro-Caribbean kids whose families have been in the U.K. for generations and Nigerian kids with a very short familial connection to the U.K.? The Caribbean kids results a far far worse. Is this because people are less racist to Nigerians?

What do you think are the reasons for ongoing differences in educational success between different ethnic groups Wakeandbake?

ShinyFootball yes I do agree. These terrible, terrible violent murders and the attending officers' conduct make it so obvious that black lives didn't matter for very long (or at all).

That poor family. There is a child who has been left without a mother, a mother who has had two of her children taken from her in the most horrific way, extended family and loved ones whose lives will never be the same again.

I cannot imagine what they were going through before they were told about the photos, let alone now.

I am beyond horrified by everything about this case.
I have lost my adult child and I have to say, the police were very kind to me at the time. I never saw my child's body, I never wanted to see anything related to the discovery of his body. If I thought anyone had taken photographs and shared them I would lose my mind.
That poor woman has lost 2 daughters and has now found out that they have been exploited and treated with such disrespect.
I can't even find the words.
I have cried over this and I don't even know the family.

endof sending love to you

If the police predominantly stop and search black people, there will continue to be more black people arrested for criminal behaviour. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy and is a institutionally racist approach used to confirm the bias that black people commit more crime.

If the police stopped and searched mostly white people, the results would probably be the same. Only they don’t.

I'm taking a small amount of comfort here from the fact that someone did report this, which if they are known to those involved, cannot have been easy for them. But cannot get my head round what sort of people wpuld do this. To me you should not get through police training without assessment of your values and ethics. I have no idea if police training addresses these kind of issues at all.

If deprivation etc is to do with 'certain other ethnic groups' then it's racism, clearly. If some ethnic groups are more failed than others by the education system, it's also racism

I'm thinking of working class Pakistani children, as one example. Not, generally as academically successful or aspirational as children of Indian origin. Some of that may have to do with the position( and education or lack of) of women ( & therefore mothers) in some ethnic communities....but there are obviously cultural issues which feed into parental expectations of their children, as well as differences in parental expectation of girls and boys.

Or are you saying that their disadvantage is the fault of black people
Because that's also racism*

Putting words into my mouth and then accusing me of something you yourself are saying is a bit of a ploy. The pattern now seems to be you going " Are you saying this?", " Are you saying that?" Leaping to a position of indignation based on what seems to be a desire for overly simplistic solutions and answers, and trying to position me as an unconscious oppressor.

I have not made sweeping generalisations about black people as a whole, but have made observations of some demographics and communities: some white communities ( in my own city), as well as some black communities; also about some Asian communities.....not all. That would indeed be racist.

But to ask questions about different cultures and different values, and how they shape or reinforce behaviour or expectation is not racist. A perpetual feeling that the police are your enemy is a common in some white communities as well. Nobody will come forward when there has been a crime for fear of being labelled a grass or a snitch, or because of a fear of reprisals.

I get how it tough it must be to live in a kind of ghettoised community; a community shaped by long term unemployment, under-employment, low educational attainment, cultural deprivation, low skills and so on....and how difficult it can be to get out of that. And certainly for many young men, who get drawn into gangs and into a life of petty criminality....where the only legitimate way out looks to be via football ( if incredibly lucky and talented, or through boxing etc).

Education and the possibility for social mobility that it can offer is the only answer, aside from engagement in ever deeper waters of the black or criminal economy.

Loyalty to tribe is also a feature of such communities, even as those communities and the cultures they foster are detrimental & even oppositional to the individual escaping it. Mainstream culture is rejected, and along with it the skills, values and desire to achieve in it.

This is a disgraceful thing to have happened compounded by further bad behaviour from the police.

Yes there is a racism problem in police forces in many countries. Certain careers are more likely to attract some people who enjoy power over others.

Has it ever occured to you that having a teacher that thinks like you is so demotivating they cant be bothered

Making everything personal is just antagonism for the sake of it, as far as I can see. And insulting.

And no I didn't go into any classroom with fixed expectations.You go into a classroom with a desire to teach and to help open up the world for your pupils, and with a love for your subject. But you obviously become aware of habits, patterns, attitudes and behaviours which can prevent or block educational attainment.

By the time many pupils get to secondary school ( where I taught) the dye is almost cast. The culture of the home, family and neighbourhood shapes a child for better or for worse - in terms of success/achievement in mainstream education.

Just shocking lazy stereotyping thinking. I would be horrified to think any child or grandchild of mine would have you as a teacher

Maybe if they had been pupils at my school, they might have learned some critical thinking skills.......because you clearly would not be able to teach them that yourself.

I also used to be a teacher,

Bingo! I guessed that about 6 months ago.