PCs suspended over photos of murder scene

[Lettera]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53185177

Men. They never disappoint.

CheshireChav
In feminist chat we discuss all sorts of things. I don't agree with every post but am happy to engage and discuss. Why you think we should be forbidden to discuss what happened to these women?

@CheshireChav

Whilst a shocking, utterly abhorrent act ... why is it in 'feminist chat'?

The police haven't had their gender identified. You're all looking for them to be male, what if they weren't?

This type of thing is why feminism is portrayed as hysterical and man-hating, and prevents normal women wanting to identify as feminists and explore feminism further. Thus damaging your cause.

Because female victims?

@CheshireChav

With respect, the title of the post was 'PCs suspended over photos of murder scene'

.. with the OP "Men. They never disappoint"

The post was about the police (of unspecified gender) that took the photos, not about the murder it the murderer.

It's a shame as I want to embrace & educate myself further about feminism, but I don't think the feminist board is for me.

This board is populated by a huge number of women (and some men) diverse in thought, background and political ideology.

You will lock horns with a poster on one thread and agree with them completely on another.

It’s shocking at first because we have become used to existing in thought-silos, an unintended consequence of the artificial intelligence algorithms written by social media techs.

Educate first and embrace later, or don’t embrace at all, but feminism is not and has never been a single organisation with an agreed aim. There are no leaders and no agreed manifestos. Decide which bits resonate and rail against the others (or ignore if you prefer).

And Cheshire, feel free to start your own thread about this elsewhere. Aibu perhaps.

Cheshirechav, give the board a go. You might learn something. I know I have.
I’ve lost the afternoon to reading about Operation Countryman thanks to ProfessorSlocombe.

Justhadathought whether the birthday gathering 'broke lock down rules' is irrelevant. Utterly and completely.

I don't recall being informed that sanctions for breaking rules were to be murdered, do you?

There's no indication at all that the police were involved in this family gathering while it was happening. What do lock down rules have to do with two women being brutally murdered in a park and police officers taking photos of their dead bodies - including a selfie - it would seem?

It's not necessary for anyone to construct an anti police narrative. The police officers conduct speaks for itself

Justhadathought whether the birthday gathering 'broke lock down rules' is irrelevant. Utterly and completely.I don't recall being informed that sanctions for breaking rules were to be murdered, do you

I'm talking about policing in a quite febrile time, when many tensions are in evidence all over the country. You seem to want to make everything about police toxicity, or similar, to back up a narrative about racism.

I have not said, that anyone deserves to murdered for attending an " illegal" gathering, even tough there have been quite a few murders over the last couple of weeks at such gatherings; as well as stabbings, rapes, attacks on the police, criminal damage and so on.

Do the police intervene; do they step back, and only get involved once things get out of hand.....?

This is quite a separate issue from what has allegedly happened with the police officers and their alleged serious misconduct in the aftermath of the double murder of two women, although many are just looking for any opportunity to make the current climate into a similar war against the police, like it is in the U.S.

Good lord
Two sisters dead at once
Surprisingly little media coverage until it turns out that
Police took selfies
And we get

This is being discussed on the wrong board
It is an anti police thread
Black people are violent, loads of knife crime
They were at an illegal gathering
Women are not angels (women could have taken the pics you can't assume it was men) (even though this has blokes written all over it)
Why is race being brought into it
Etc etc etc etc

Depressing

Which all sounds nice, until you remember how many black people are stopped "on suspicion" which leads to fuck all. So you then go back to the "suspicion" and discover it really was "Because I am black"

Who said it was " nice"? It is not nice to be stopped and searched when you have committed no offence or crime, but stop and search is a useful tool that has been brought back by various forces over recent times. Because it is effective.

I live in Liverpool, and in certain areas of the city youths ( & let's face it is mainly young males of whatever race or skin colour) are regularly stopped and search, because in some communities gangs of youths rule the roost ( or think they do); operating as 'foot soldiers' or 'runners', or wannabe gangsters; terrorising their local communities with wanton acts of violence and lawlessness; driving dirt bikes at high speed against the flow of traffic and so on.......

People/the community want these kids to be stopped and searched; and yes, it means that at times completely innocent people are stopped and searched too. Some of the communities I am talking about above are predominantly white, and it is white kids that are being stopped, because it is white kids 'doing the criminality' in those areas.

Does London not have an identified issue with gangs and knife crime, especially in certain black communities and neighbourhoods?

The fact they were women and black is of course a factor in how this is being dealt with and reported.

Stop and search has been highly contraversial in London for years and years.

It's probably too off topic for this thread, as it's such a big topic in itself.

Of course it was horrendously wrong but police are more or less desensitised due to what horrifc things they deal with on a day to day basis .
I don't think it was racially motivated .

I was sitting in my car outside my home and I was watching a YouTube video. I had actually come outside to have a cigarette. I saw a police van pull up behind me. I thought nothing of this but then could see an officer approaching my car as other officers stood near the van. This officer came up to the driver-side window and asked me what I was doing. I explained that I lived here and pointed to my flat

He added: “This officer said he smelled cannabis and said he wanted to search me and the car. I was shocked by this as the accusation came out of nowhere. I do not smoke cannabis and therefore there is no way the officer could have smelled this. He also pointed to my car, a BMW, and said it was a nice car to be owned by someone like me

Nobody wants to support bad policing...but this account above could have been written about an incident which occurred outside of my home a few months ago. A very similar situation. Suspicion of drugs. Expensive car driven by young man ( they also asked him how come he was driving such a car - a shiny, flash black car of the sort favoured by local gangsters), pulled up/stopped outside my house; several police cars attending. Driver patted down.

The driver actually knocked at our door, and asked if we'd be witnesses to both himself and his car being searched. He was white.

I'm sure sometimes police officers do stop and search because they are down on numbers for the day, but I'm glad of all of the times when they do stop and search and a major/minor gangster is arrested.

Sex and race both may well have played a role. I would say they did on the balance.

I also wonder what the state of their clothing was. I assumed they were stabbed and the bloke (I mean it could have been a woman was anyone surprised it was a bloke) ran away.

Sounds like the two police removed some stuff from the scene as well? I'm sure I read that.

Anyway would they have taken selfies with a dead white man? Impossible to say of course. But just because we don't Know doesn't mean we can't speculate, and based on the things we know grim various sources, discuss what is or is not possible or likely.

If the benefit of the doubt were always given, then sexism and racism would rarely be exposed.

Are you glad of all the times that the disproportionate attention on black people by the police has exploded in anger in the communities affected?

Because that is cause and effect.

I suppose your answer would be that people who know they are being targeted because of their race should smile sweetly and comply.

I note that earlier on you suggested that the women may have been at an illegal gathering. Which was an interesting point to make, to say the least.

I don't really think there's any thread on MN about a serious subject that couldn't be on the FWR boards. In my experience at the moment it's also a particularly thoughtful place,although that may just be in contrast to a couple of months on Twitter. I feel you're less likely to get a 'support the police, end of' response here.

And saying 'women aren't angels' - that was me. Probably talking to myself. I said I immediately thought of the officers as male, I still think that's most likely, but I'm scared they might not be.

I note that earlier on you suggested that the women may have been at an illegal gathering. Which was an interesting point to make, to say the least

You are picking and choosing certain paragraphs, out of context, in order to make a particular point. Go back and read that post again, in full. it was about policing in our current unusual and febrile times, and in response to automatic accusations of police toxicity and so on.

Two women have been murdered in a London Park. Several other people have been murdered at other 'illegal' gatherings too ( two men stabbed to death in Manchester last week - at a gathering that the police decided not to disperse for fear of inflaming a situation.

Are you glad of all the times that the disproportionate attention on black people by the police has exploded in anger in the communities affected

"Play the ball, and not the man"...as the analogy goes.

You're insinuating that the women were engaged in an illegal activity.

Absolutely disgraceful what the two officers did.

But making the whole incident a racism issue I think is dangerous.

Police won't attend immediately a 'missing' person if there are no vulnerabilities e.g child or adult at risk. This would be the same if it were two white sisters.

Even if they did attend to take an initial report there would not be any police coordinated searches immediately.

Absolutely tragic that two young women were killed in this manner but perhaps there's a reason why very little is being reported.

I have asked for this to be deleted as it is not true. I misinterpreted a news article.

You're insinuating that the women were engaged in an illegal activity

I can see you are determined to twist and manipulate my words to suit your narrative. So there's no point in trying to engage further with you.The point i was making about policing 'gatherings' at this rather febrile time has been lost on you.

Hopefully the murderer can be identified soon. It does seem like a very bizarre crime. Hopefully some witnesses will come forward.

Horrified witnesses described hearing terrifying screams before emergency crews scrambled to Fryent Country Park in Wembley yesterday : www.thesun.co.uk/news/11804681/two-women-dead-north-london/ ( loathe as I am to click on The sun.)

@MooseBeTimeForSummer

I have asked for this to be deleted as it is not true. I misinterpreted a news article.

Thanks for fixing it.

If we could all admit it when we’ve drawn the wrong conclusion or shared inaccurate information (especially journalists and politicians!) society would be healthier!

We don’t know anything much about the identity or motivations of the murderer or the suspended police officers.