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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where to start? Comedian to J.K.

92 replies

WokeEwok · 18/06/2020 15:59

Oops posted too soon

OP posts:
TehBewilderness · 21/06/2020 21:14

@ShinyFootball

I know Luna is a character in the film, is that the Luna mentioned? Or the authors niece?

Confused.

I think they conflated the two in their story for dramatic effect.
FloralBunting · 21/06/2020 21:27

#QuarterWit.

ShinyFootball · 21/06/2020 21:33

Whether it's the character in the film or her niece, Luna is not 'theirs'. They are a person/ character in their own right.

If DD (GNC with trans leanings, like all her friends...) said she was upset about what JKR said I would discuss it with her.

I wouldn't write an open letter to JKR saying YOU HURT MY DDAngry

I mean, what on earth.

A lot of films, TV programs, have.. not hurt but angered me due to the constant representation of women as 2D characters who only exist to progress the male protagonist's story. Often by being kidnapped/ raped/ murdered.

If I was to write to all of the directors actors scriptwriters who hurt the female sex as a whole though their representations I would have to give up my job and pretty much everything else to get through it all!

FloralBunting · 21/06/2020 21:38

The possessive pronoun is serving one purpose only here - to cast the author as the protective hero in the scenario. It's the same dynamic for so many of the people claiming 'Ally' status - while claiming to be trans is a complicated psychological thing, depending on the demographic, cultural influences, etc, being an ally is all about self aggrandizement.

HappyPunky · 21/06/2020 21:45

@TehBewilderness thanks I get it now.

I was thinking I'd go ape shit if someone used my DD as an example like that and changed her name to a male sounding one because she loves cars and football.

If Luna is a real kid, his parents probably haven't met this person who wrote the letter and even if they have it won't be in the last few months.

ShinyFootball · 21/06/2020 21:50

OK so JKR wrote this thing and it has 'ruined' the books written ages ago that do not touch on it.

As I woman I give you, from a ' ruined' perspective.

The shining. Awesome film. Until I read that Kubrick worked as hard as he could to actually send divall over the edge. Rather than trusting her to act. (Google it if you've not heard, it was highly abusive. An interview with her a couple years back, she is very mentally ill, led to Kubrick's daughter writing an open letter saying leave her alone, stop exploiting her, my father did enough of that).

Not watched many Polanski films but well.

Weinstein. Fucking Weinstein. I won't list the films he is connected here for obvious reasons. There are loads.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Weinstein

Star wars forced snog scene as an adult turns my stomach.
The rapey songs in grease.

So much SO MUCH.

Has the OMG you hurt my Luna by saying biological sex is real person thought about this shit?
I'm guessing not.
Because that shit didn't hurt men and boys. And woman and girls ARE 2d non people who are there to be sexy and seduced (often saying no, then giving up after lots of pestering, this is presented as normal) do why would you.

Oh.
Last tango in Paris. Actual assault. They didn't tell her what they were going to do. She was really crying. Never seen it tbh. Again. Lots on Google.
Deep throat, classic ooer boys giggling film. Of course much worse now. Anyway. She wasn't consenting

And on and on and on and on and on.

One woman says biological sex is real and important and this ruins everything?

Fuck them all. Angry tonight.

WinterAndRoughWeather · 21/06/2020 22:07

@ShinyFootball

Fucking YES.

I am so fed up of misogyny getting a free pass.

LockdownLump · 21/06/2020 23:00

Oh yes @ShinyFootball - also add to that Quentin tarantino putting Uma Thurman in physical danger to get a better shot.

Also condoning Polanski. Apparently the 13 year old he sodomised was 'down with that'

Makes me so fucking angry.

RatinaMaze · 22/06/2020 11:52

I’ve seen Sarah K live a few times and have thought she was a very good comedian.

I work in the Arts so have to be careful about my GC stance in my professional life. I go to Edinburgh every year and see over 100 comedy shows. Over the last two years – and especially last year – I’ve noticed a huge shift in comedians tackling the trans issue. Comedians whom I’ve previously really respected trotting out last lines about how there have been trans people around forever but middle-aged women have suddenly decided that their existence is unacceptable and decided to persecute them online. They claim these poor trans-people have done nothing and have been targeted out of the blue. No mention of GRC reforms, safeguarding, single-sex spaces etc. The audience, many of whom will not have been aware beforehand that there is a trans-debate, therefore leave the venue having been educated and shaking their heads about the sort of people who would seek to remove “rights” from transwomen.

Sarah K’s letter is particularly frustrating because I actually agree with every word she says, until the point where she says that due to gender-based marketing and societal expectations, “Luna” and his peers need to be allowed into the spaces which best fit them. Why not flip the argument and argue for the bandwith of the existing spaces to be expanded to become more inclusive? Why not get rid of “spaces” and boundaries altogether and just let kids be kids?
Sarah does make a good point about the HP books being a good mode for those who are different, those who don’t fit neatly into boxes, those who depend on their friends to support them… But this argument stands up on the other side too. Neither JKR nor any GC people of whom I’m aware, are saying that people are not allowed to be different. It’s exactly the opposite – we celebrate difference and want difference to be widely accepted; butch lesbians, boys wearing makeup, whatever. Surely it is the TRAs who are quashing difference by insisting on fitting these people/children into boxes?

As a former child who loved dinosaurs and cars and ponies but hated dolls, who sometimes pretended to be a boy, complete with a chosen boy’s name, who also loved dresses, hair and make-up but hated “pop” music and rom-coms and preferred heavy metal and action movies, who has grown into a 42-year old woman who still loves dinosaurs, heavy metal, technology, comic books, dresses, spa-days, make-up and cooking; I feel for “Luna” and resent the adults in his life who are so over-invested in trying to figure out “what” he is. He is a child and hopefully will grow into a well-rounded individual with a variety of likes and dislikes.

I'd like to be charitable and say that Sarah wrote this letter following JKR's initial tweets. She may have had pause for reflection following her later explanation. I'm also pleased that, as badly-thought out as the letter was, Sarah at least didn't resort to name-called and death threats. I mean, I'd like to be charitable, but she completely lost me at the "ask your husband" bit.

nauticant · 22/06/2020 12:30

I know this is absolutely not what you mean RatinaMaze but one can form the view that trans activists are doing relatively well in their arguments if they don't trip up and come out with a load of death threats.

RatinaMaze · 22/06/2020 13:04

You're quite right - that's not what I meant at all. Rather, I am more open to debate and discuss the issue with folk who don't resort to mud-slinging and threats.

SK's over emotional tone presents a different sort of problems, mind you...

Hellohello2020 · 22/06/2020 13:28

Using they as a singular pronoun confuses me. I keep thinking she is talking about Luna and his friend. I hated pink as a girl...

OldCrone · 22/06/2020 13:57

Neither JKR nor any GC people of whom I’m aware, are saying that people are not allowed to be different. It’s exactly the opposite – we celebrate difference and want difference to be widely accepted; butch lesbians, boys wearing makeup, whatever. Surely it is the TRAs who are quashing difference by insisting on fitting these people/children into boxes?

This is the bit that TRAs really don't seem to understand.

ShinyFootball · 22/06/2020 14:16

Or they do understand but pretend they don't for a variety of reasons.

One being that if there's aren't clear differences in terms of how the sexes present (long hair v short hair, dress v trousers, makeup v none) then it makes it harder for them to signal their 'gender' with clothing.

If lots of men started wearing dresses and makeup that makes it really difficult for tw so signal that they are a laydee.

There was an awesome post from a Goth MTF trans person complaining that male Goths wear eyeliner and can't they think of someone other than themselves and stop it, as it makes it harder for the trans Goth to signal 'I'm a girl'.

Quillink · 22/06/2020 14:28

So near and yet so far. Did she even read JKR's essay?

RatinaMaze · 22/06/2020 15:53

@ShinyFootball

Or they do understand but pretend they don't for a variety of reasons.

One being that if there's aren't clear differences in terms of how the sexes present (long hair v short hair, dress v trousers, makeup v none) then it makes it harder for them to signal their 'gender' with clothing.

If lots of men started wearing dresses and makeup that makes it really difficult for tw so signal that they are a laydee.

There was an awesome post from a Goth MTF trans person complaining that male Goths wear eyeliner and can't they think of someone other than themselves and stop it, as it makes it harder for the trans Goth to signal 'I'm a girl'.

That's it, isn't it. They need to believe that "TERFs, Boomers and Karens" are insistent on pigeon-holing people into boxes based on gender. They need to believe this because they want to show the world that they are unique and special and they only way they can prove their uniqueness is if they clearly don't fit into the boxes. They want the boxes to exist so that they can be outside of them. Expanding the boxes will just mean that they end up being the same as a whole bunch of other people.
TorkTorkBam · 22/06/2020 18:08

New generation thinks they will solve sexism. They think the older generation somehow colluded in their oppression and the new generation won't grow up to be like that. A few months after their second child is born they realise like a bucket of cold sick that the patriarchy is real and their mum didn't necessarily want the life she got.

It's how my generation thought. Now loads of my gen are on the Relationship boards 15-30 years later realising, yep, the patriarchy is real, sexism isn't cured by refusing to take your husband's surname, being a cool girl and sharing the washing up most of the time before you have children.

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