1984 - George Orwell

[HuckfromScandal]

Quote from 1984

“Every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered.....history has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right.”

Would quite like a thread of quotes that sum up life in 2020 based on George Orwell’s 1984.

Please add the ones that resonate with you.

In today’s world in particular (within this context, or at least the context in which I view this) ideological power drives material conditions (or aims to). Material conditions drive further power, ideologically (in other words, materially), and hence, economically.

Perhaps, but this has nothing to do with Marxism. You can't call something Marxism when it has almost nothing to do with what Marx actually said and is in many ways opposed to it.

Lots of ideologies share certain features in common, sometimes because they are things anyone can see as true, other times they borrow a feature of the ideology. But that doesn't mean they are the same - they may even be opposed.

I think that's a bit unfair to Winston. He doesn't say 'Do it to Julia' because Julia is a woman. He says it because he wants the torture to stop and Julia is the only other person he knows is there. I have no doubt she was saying similar.

I found 1984 absolutely terrifying when I read it in my mid-teens, because of the idea of controlling thought by controlling language. Little did I think I would live to see a time when it would have taken root in my own country.

This is a chilling bit.

***
'Thoughtcrime is a dreadful thing, old man,' he said sententiously. 'It's insidious. It can get hold of you without your even knowing it. Do you know how it got hold of me? In my sleep! Yes, that's a fact. There I was, working away, trying to do my bit--never knew I had any bad stuff in my mind at all. And then I started talking in my sleep. Do you know what they heard me saying?'

He sank his voice, like someone who is obliged for medical reasons to utter an obscenity.

'"Down with Big Brother!" Yes, I said that! Said it over and over again,
it seems. Between you and me, old man, I'm glad they got me before it went any further. Do you know what I'm going to say to them when I go up before the tribunal? "Thank you," I'm going to say, "thank you for saving me before it was too late."'

'Who denounced you?' said Winston.

'It was my little daughter,' said Parsons with a sort of doleful pride.
'She listened at the keyhole. Heard what I was saying, and nipped off to the patrols the very next day. Pretty smart for a nipper of seven, eh?
I don't bear her any grudge for it. In fact I'm proud of her. It shows I
brought her up in the right spirit, anyway.'

I don’t disagree. Marxism as it was set out by Marx is a slightly different thing, to be fair. But ideology very much played its part in the various experiments that have been made to that end throughout history. But, lots of things make perfect sense in my head that probably don’t translate very well to making sense to others. It would take far too long to set it out with the coherence to do my view justice.

I also have managed to derail a little, so apologies OP!

The quotes that have been posted so far are just so sobering, aren’t they.

Can I just also mention that the opening line is one of the best in English literature.

It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.

I need to reread. There seems to be a powerful minority using it as a how-to guide for crushing the human spirit. And i think, ironically, it all started 20 years ago with that super fun (superfun?) gameshow Big Brother.

@Ninkanink

I don’t disagree. Marxism as it was set out by Marx is a slightly different thing, to be fair. But ideology very much played its part in the various experiments that have been made to that end throughout history. But, lots of things make perfect sense in my head that probably don’t translate very well to making sense to others. It would take far too long to set it out with the coherence to do my view justice.

I also have managed to derail a little, so apologies OP!

The quotes that have been posted so far are just so sobering, aren’t they.

Well, it completely contradicts several principles of Marxism. It's much more closely related to postmodernism and individualism and even political progressivism.

Ideology isn't a feature of Marxism, capitalism is ideological, platonism, existentialism postmodernism, pretty much any philosophical or religious system - they are based on ideas, that makes them ideological.

@RuffleCrow

I need to reread. There seems to be a powerful minority using it as a how-to guide for crushing the human spirit. And i think, ironically, it all started 20 years ago with that super fun (superfun?) gameshow Big Brother.

Do you remember the book by Stephen King, The Running Man? It was written in the early 80's. There is a movie as well but it's not that similar IIRC.

When reality tv became big I kept thinking about that novel.

Perhaps a better way to put it is I’m looking at it from the point of enaction/delivery rather than theory. Not sure if that makes it any clearer what perspective I’m looking it from, but I’m interested in social aspects rather than economic ones, in terms of what actually played or plays out when ideology comes along to reinforce a certain state of economic affairs. Or something. This is informed by having some personal experience of life behind the iron curtain.

It’s like this with a lot of things in my head. In an ideal world I’d want to live for centuries so I could properly take the time to write it all out, on all my various views. Much of the time I’m limited to just addressing one tiny aspect of it, when that statement is not necessarily easily supported without a dissertation. I don’t have the patience, unfortunately, nor the time.

Again apologies, OP for derailing.

@Deliriumoftheendless

It’s not a surprise really though, is it? 1984 is rooted in Stalinism and lots of what is happening today with cancel culture and the turning on supporters for the slightest perceived wrong doing has huge echoes of Stalinism as well as McCarthyism.

Which is perhaps not surprising given the manipulation of social media by foreign interests with their own authoritarian histories and experience with propaganda.

and individualism

None of the quotes from 1984 are related to 'individualism.' They are related to conformity, orthodoxy, the subordination of the individual to the group and the manipulation of language to prevent critical thought. Or as Julia puts it:

Always yell with the crowd, that's what I say. It's the only way to be safe.

The 21st century is replete with examples of people being sacked, denounced, no platformed and vilified for refusing to yell with an increasingly totalitarian crowd

Identity politics are an interesting play of individualism and groupism. Identity is in the end always individual, particularly when it's explicitly been unmoored from material reality.

Part of the reason that such a degree of thought control is required to get people to toe the line is that what is real is completely subjective. It's quite Nietzchean, if there is no truth than whoever can maintain their vision of truth through force or manipulation is the one who gets to decide what the truth is - there is no sense in which you can argue the merits of the ideology if they are all equally made up.

Identity is not a type of class fundamentally, it is an alternative that is meant to undermine it.

Not a quote, but the scene where Winston goes to a wooded area because it is the only place without surveillance.

I haven't read it since I was a teenager. Was the dictatorship worldwide or was it a North Korea situation where the media, other flows of information and movements of people were so controlled it was impossible to tell?

@Ninkanink
You are totally right.
Any of his books!

if there is no truth than whoever can maintain their vision of truth through force or manipulation is the one who gets to decide what the truth is

This is Orwell's depiction of Stalinism. A totalitarian state which is able to exert such control over its citizens, that truth is whatever it claims. The NKVD would ensure it. And the material condition of its citizens? As Winston says

All one knew was that every quarter astronomical numbers of boots were produced on paper, while perhaps half the population of Oceania went barefoot

Orwell asked one of his Stalinist apologists buddies, who continued to witter about you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, Where is the omelette? The attempts to create a Marxist society in the 20th century broke millions of eggs. The omelette remains elusive.

@MaMaLa321 I wrote exactly that comparative essay as part of my English Literature A-level 20-odd years ago!!

Slight sidestep from the topic, but Trump reinventing the truth about what he said about COVID, with advisers forced to toe the line, makes me think of Squealer up a ladder in the night, rewriting the commandments on the barn wall.

Another one worth reading again.

I’ll put it on the list for when I’m done getting through all JKR’s books.

I agree that Twitter etc has a strong Anti-Sex League feel - that is, it is almost entirely devoid of sex as what I would consider a positive thing - warm, loving, part of a relationship of equals, bringing mutual enjoyment.

Instead, sex is a very selfish, individual, boxed-in thing, where people spend their time establishing hierarchies of kinks, negotiating boundaries (not that you shouldn't have boundaries, but in a normal sexual relationship this is easily established and not fraught nor involving anyone having to train themselves to like something etc), demanding respect for their sexual identity, feeling entitled to sex the way they want it...it seems like a lot of hard work, it never ever seems like anybody actually enjoys it, everyone seems very traumatised afterwards and a lot of bitterness and resentment is brought in along the way. It's like every sexual encounter (of which there do not seem to be many) is the result of protracted power games and talking, and must be accessorised with all manner of clothes and devices.

The other thing that troubles me (and I’m sorry for the tangent) is the swift retribution towards anyone who thinks differently to the orthodoxy. This will come back and bite some people quite hard.

There seems to be a huge stigma (especially with trans logic) against mental health issues- as if suggesting anyone has MH issues is the worst thing you can suggest. I find this extremely wrong. And when you see how happy some TRAs are to throw around terms like “nutter” where do they think they’ll be in a few years when the next generation is appalled at the treatment of those with MH issues? Will people agree to be “re-educated”, deny everything or what?

I haven’t made much sense there I know, but I’m guessing most of us would have been classed as progressive until recently. Times change.

I find the tangents interesting and great food for thought. 👍

AmericanSlang - Orwell was rejected by them years ago, he's a colonialist for a start (was in Burma)
Not sure if this has been addressed - but Orwell was virulently anti-colonialist. He was in Burma for a time - but it was his experiences there that shaped his strong opposition to colonial rule.

On Marxism, Orwell was a socialist, although not necessarily a Marxist. Even so, 1984 and Animal Farm were critiques of a very particular form/interpretation of Marxism (and 1984 has also been interpreted as a critique of totalitarianism of both right and left - since, while the regime depicted called itself IngSoc, we know that historically terms like "socialist" have been used by far-right totalitarian regimes as well as far-left ones).

There was an episode of Star Trek TNG strongly influenced by 1984. The one where Picard is tortured to make him say there are 5 lights but there are only 4.

(I just looked it up, the episode was called "Chain of Command".)

My standard response when someone tries to sell me blatant nonsense is "there are 4 lights!"

@terryleather I’ve borrowed that, if you don’t mind!

Orwell has fallen out of favour for various reasons depending on who’s done the rejecting, I think.

Isn’t it interesting how the wider context has changed so very much in intervening years and yet, how little has fundamentally changed.

The only thing we learn from history...