Be an ally to lesbians: stop using LGBTQ+

[Shedbuilder]

I'm a lesbian and I mentally parted company with Stonewall and began opposing it and a lot of other LGB organisations when they added the T and then the Q and then all the other identity letters to the original LGB.

LGB people are united by same-sex attraction. TQ and whatever are linked by their insistence on identity — defining themselves by feelings or whatever. LGB people are united by their experience of homophobia. Transgenderism, and its attack on sex, is inherently homophobic. The two cannot and could never exist comfortably together. As soon as Stonewall added the T to their constituency, it began working against its core community.

Stonewall and other organisations have done this by force. Uncoupling the LGB from the TQ+ is one of the most important things anyone with a GC stance can do.

Please, let us work towards making the letters LGBTQ+ a badge of ignorance and shame, not something that employers should be plastering everywhere as proof of how progressive they are.

@Ninkanink
Are you always so hostile and patronising when people who don’t agree with you? Pot kettle black.

*to people who don’t agree with you

You've just demonstrated the point Nink was making.

-isms aren’t individual people, Elsie.

Elsie, as has already been noted, I was commenting that transgenderism with its tenet that TWAW and that biological sex doesn't exist is essentially homophobic — because if biological sex doesn't exist there is no such thing as same-sex attraction and a man can ask a lesbian to suck his lady-dick. If you subscribe to an ideology that says sex doesn't exist and anyone who is. what they say they are then one of the upshots of that is that you're essentially homophobic.

As a lesbian, I tend to find homophobic people quite difficult to like. I'm gender non-comforting myself so I have no problem with men in eyeliner and skirts or women in shirts and ties — just as long as they don't lie to me about their sex so that they can gain access to women and women's spaces.

Elsiebear

Stop embarrassing yourself mate.

I have not been hostile anywhere.

Disagreeing with your central premise, however vehemently, is not, in fact, hostility.

Pointing out that your arguments are childish in the extreme and entirely devoid of robust reasoning and indicative of a complete lack of critical faculty is not, in fact, patronising.

If you cannot handle robust challenges to your badly thought out comments then another arena might suit you a lot better.

You guys don’t want a discussion it’s evident, you claim to speak up for women and women’s rights, but any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on, ridicule and bully them off the thread. You clearly only value a woman or a lesbian’s opinion when it is the same as yours.

Set out your argument, addressing points made in reply to you below, one by one, and refuting them with coherent reasoning, and I absolutely will respect your position.

Until you can and will do that I’m not required to afford your position any respect. You have a right to hold it of course, and I completely respect that right. But you’ll have to do a lot better in terms of argument if you want to earn my respect of your position. That’s how persuasion works.

Explain what exactly is childish about stating that OP cannot speak for all lesbians? And that not all lesbians want to exclude trans people from LGBT? That’s a fact, whether you like it not. OP is entitled to her opinion, but should not speak for all lesbians with it.

This is the childish bit:

And saying someone’s very existence is homophobic is showing that you like them? You can’t hide your dislike of trans people when making statements like this, if you think someone just being trans is homophobic, as a lesbian, how can you then say you don’t dislike trans people? That makes no sense what so ever.

Read it back, in relation to the point(s) you were arguing against, and see if you can determine what makes this a childish retort, betraying a childish approach.

any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on, ridicule and bully them off the thread. You clearly only value a woman or a lesbian’s opinion when it is the same as yours.

The way you value women and lesbian opinions on here that differ from yours, you mean? I don't see much tolerance or valuing on your part.

Pointing out the issues with your argument isn't bullying. Debating with you isn't mean. It may be pointing out that the point you're making is ridiculous, which is not the same thing as 'ridiculing you'.

C'mon, Elsie, discuss back. What do you make of what I just said? Explain to me why you think sex doesn't matter. If you don't agree with what I've said about gender theory being essentially homophobic, tell me why — I would genuinely like to know.

@Elsiebear90

You guys don’t want a discussion it’s evident, you claim to speak up for women and women’s rights, but any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on, ridicule and bully them off the thread. You clearly only value a woman or a lesbian’s opinion when it is the same as yours.

You came on with the usual wide eyed "oh, so you don't like trans women, then?", Elsie. Posters here are having a discussion but you're not contributing anything of value so far.

(I would be happy to set out for you why your comment above constitutes a childish retort betraying a childish approach to the wider topic being discussed, if you like. But I thought you might consider it a little too hostile and perhaps you’d rather attempt to dissect it for yourself. However please do let me know if you’d rather i back up my assertion myself.)

Placemarking (just to see if anyone answers any of the questions before bogging off).

I edit documents for a living. I cannot get away with removing the T without cause I g trouble but I make an active effort to remove the Q and in particular the I.

I can argue that intersex people have complained at being included and that Q is a slur.
It's my small stand for the community

Do you know what is cruel? Telling women and LGB people that we can't have boundaries. That we must give up our spaces and organizations and feed the cuckoo without questioning the situation. Otherwise we are being hostile.

Also, given that Q is specifically mentioned and included in OP’s argument, it might be good to do some extensive research on what constitutes current queer theory and whether you as a lesbian can happily align yourself with it.

Fairfax

LGB is about same-sex sexuality.

T is about performative cosplay.

Give that as one of your reasons on your next applicable job.

you claim to speak up for women and women’s rights, but any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on

Only if that woman is hand waving away all our rights!
Men cannot BE women. Women are adult human females. Men don’t need women’s rights because they are all designed to compensate for being the smaller of the sexes and for being the sex that bears children.

LGB can exist, the LGB Alliance can exist, alongside something like Stonewall and the alphabet soup.
The CRE can exist and so can specific lobbying or support groups for different ethnicities.
Referring to oneself as LGB or as a lesbian or as a homosexual and supporting groups and organisations that address the specific needs of LGB or lesbian or homosexual or bisexual people isn't exclusionary (negative), it is specific.

Why would I want to hijack someone else's charity, or club night or support group? Why would I plonk my arse down in a group therapy session for survivors of grizzly bear attacks if it had nothing to do with me? What exactly am I being excluded from?
I'm not sure of it's FOMO or just stereotypically male behaviour or what.

A bit like how I'd never ever want a woman to have sex with me if she didn't really want to, whereas plenty of men get off on paying or coercing or cajoling or tricking unenthusiastic women into submitting to them sexually.
If there are groups that choose to include "non-binary" men or transwomen of whichever type by mutual agreement great. The problem isn't the existence of those groups, which some posters are very enthusiastic about, but the difficulty in having a group for just women. There is no respect for women's right to choose female-only groups.

The GRA allowed primogeniture to continue, the Masons let transwomen join but not women - with little pushback because women don't have the same sense of entitlement to push their way in where they aren't wanted (with the exception of the transman in the gay sauna story!)
Once you see this pattern it's very hard to unsee.

What flying said.

And there are pages and pages and pages and pages of receipts of the most horrendous homophobic, misogynist abuse online. Entire blogs devoted to just that.

So saying that it never happens is at best misinformed and at worst just lying.

Attached is the illustration of my point on my previous post.