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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should the GRA be repealed ...

341 replies

NotAssigned · 16/06/2020 23:52

... and if so how would that be achieved?

OP posts:
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DaisiesandButtercups · 17/01/2021 10:27

Please do Highname!

highame · 17/01/2021 10:43

I keep thinking back to what happened prior to GRA and it does seem we've stepped backwards both in terms of women and of trans rights. I remember late 1990's a friend transitioning, full throttle, so to speak and there were just no problems. The feminist debate was live and well and we discussed (yes discussed) whether Laura was a woman and the agreement was, that she wasn't. I think the GRA has been detrimental in that it has drawn out a lot of conflicts that just weren't apparent, one being that it has galvanised a load of TRA's and set up a chain of aggressive conflict.

Perfect sense chattylion Star

RozWatching · 17/01/2021 11:05

@R0wantrees

In this day and age it ought to be quite possible to have that information stored in 'back end' data, but not actually printed on a physical card or passport. I know that doesn't get to the root of the problem, but it would solve the immediate issue for those described above, who just hate having a gender on their documents that they don't feel comfortable with.

There is no need for 'gender' on documents, sex can be. Key documents are used in many situations for identification with Safeguarding implications where electronic data would not/could not ever be read.
There is evidence that it was deliberate strategy by Press For Change to conflate gender and sex.

Whittle and co's silence over everything that has gone wrong (eg puberty blockers) speaks volumes.

Afaik the first attempt to enshrine the phrase 'gender identity' in law was as far back as 1996 with Alex Carlile MP, who appeared to have been fed some preposterous BS about female brains in male bodies.
In the 2004 GRA debates the government's line was 'it's a medical condition'. So why bring 'gender' into it?

RozWatching · 17/01/2021 11:19

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

And serious legal protection against discrimination for any type of gender non-conformity

Gender reassignment is already a protected characteristic. 'Reassignment' doesn't mean surgery, so it must include gender non conformity.

But non-conformity should be protected without association with the outdated concept of 'sex change'.

The GRA promotes the idea that a person's biological sex is a matter of privacy. It's bonkers.

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 17/01/2021 11:43

Non-conformity with sexed stereotypes should be part of sex discrimination, there is absolutely no need for any reference to 'gender' in law at all.

DaisiesandButtercups · 17/01/2021 12:05

I agree Viper.

If a woman is permitted to wear any type of garment or footwear in a place of work or education then so should a man and vice versa.

That it would be sex discrimination to say that a man can’t wear a skirt to work if the same type of skirt would be deemed acceptable to be worn by a woman. It would be discrimination against a man on the basis of his sex.

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/01/2021 12:10

Agree completely.

So long as the person is following the expected dress code if there is one in the situation, it shouldn't make a difference what items from the dress code an individual chooses to wear. I think that's already covered in law as Daisies points out - direct discrimination on the basis of sex.

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/01/2021 12:12

And as always and frequently pointed out: if 'woman' is coded as a dress/costume thing:

What do all the female humans not wearing that costume today then turn into? Has anyone asked them? Do they get a say in it?

It's as if we need separate words for 'people of either sex who....' and 'female humans' before it will all make sense. How about transwomen and women?

R0wantrees · 17/01/2021 12:20

Whittle and co's silence over everything that has gone wrong (eg puberty blockers) speaks volumes.

Stephen Whittle appeared to play a significant role in pressuring the NHS Tavstock GIDS service to adopt the prescribing of 'puberty blockers' to children

'The Tavistock’s Experiment with Puberty Blockers*'
Michael Biggs
Department of Sociology and St Cross College, University of Oxford
(version 1.0.1, 29 July 2019)

extract
"... Therefore the origins of the Tavistock’s experiment needs some explanation.

The Dutch protocol became well known in Britain before the first scientific article was published. A television documentary showed girls who wished to be boys travelling to meet their peers in the Netherlands, who were taking GnRHa as young as 13 (Channel 4 1996). This inspired Stephen Whittle—who led the transgender campaigning organization Press for Change—to argue for a legal right to access “pubertal suppression”; doctors who failed to provide drugs could be vulnerable to litigation (Downs and Whittle 2000; Wren 2000: 224). This argument was first advanced at a conference at Oxford in 1998, whose keynote speaker was the head of the Amsterdam Gender Clinic. There was little movement, however, over the next few years. Guidelines issued by the British Society for Paediatric Endocrinology and Diabetes (BSPED) in 2005 still insisted that children had to reach full sexual development (known as Tanner Stage 5)—around the age of 15—before being prescribed GnRHa drugs

A crucial role was played by organizations that campaign for the transgendering of children: the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) and Mermaids. GIRES organized a symposium in London in 2005 to develop “guidelines for endocrinological intervention”. Additional funding came from Mermaids, two medical charities—Nuffield Foundation and King’s Fund—and the Servite Sisters Charitable Trust Fund. This brought together the creators of the Dutch protocol, American clinicians like Norman Spack in Boston, and key British figures such as Domenico Di Ceglie, the Director of GIDS, and Polly Carmichael and Russell Viner, both at Great Ormond Street Hospital. (The latter two would lead the 2011 experiment.) Some of the participants vigorously lobbied for the Dutch protocol. Veronica Sharp from Mermaids “described users’ and parents’ views of the available treatments, and the anguish they may experience when hormone blocking is delayed” (GIRES 2005). The symposium ended with agreement to push for amendments to guidance from bodies like BSPED, and to conduct collaborative research between London, Amsterdam, and Boston. There was another meeting in Amsterdam in the following year, but the collaboration did not eventuate." (continues)

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Screenshot shows Professor Stephen Whittle's response to the findings of Quincy Bell and A -v- Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust and others Judicial Review and advice to parents.

Should the GRA be repealed ...
MoleSmokes · 17/01/2021 14:17

R0wantrees Many thanks again for being such a fantastic historian as well as archivist!

Another reason for repealing the GRA is that Parliamentarians were given reassurances verbally and in writing during the debate that have since been proved false. For example, the explicit reassurance that no one would ever be required to refer to someone using pronouns that are at odds with their sex.

This issue extends well beyond GRC holders, for example with the Bench Rules instructing Courts to require use of pronouns based on Self-ID of gender even in the case of rape, an exclusively male crime in English law.

If the GRA2004 were to be replaced rather than repealed then, given that transgender identities are now a matter of pride and celebration rather than shame, it would make more sense to have an ID system that reflected this in addition to biological sex.

The GRA2004 is outdated in that it reflects attitudes that the EA2010 was needed to address. It encourages the idea that transgenderism is something that still needs to be concealed when society has moved on.

If people are concerned about ID documentation putting them in danger when they travel abroad, how would that be any different from someone who is now travelling with ID that is clearly at odds with their biological sex?

R0wantrees · 17/01/2021 14:27

MoleSmokes I'm happy to help.
I believe the GRA should be repealed because it and the claims made by lobby groups such as Press For Change were not properly scrutinised. Its very poor legislation which compromises Safeguarding.

ChattyLion · 17/01/2021 22:34

Another current thread on this topic here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4137159-Should-the-GRA-be-repealed

MedusasBrandyButter · 18/01/2021 08:31

@QuimReaper

Genuine question - is there a compelling reason why sex needs to be stated on passports?
Why shouldn't we insist that a passport or other form of ID refer to only one person, and correspond in all points with the person identified?! Confused Those using ID for official purposes (banks, immigration, admitting people to offices) will make allowances for changes in hair cuts, hair colour, facial hair, glasses, etc., but their discretion should definitely not extend to the wrong sex!

Caroline Criado-Perez once revealed that either she or her brother could open the other's iPhone with face recognition. She has now deleted that tweet, but this exchange is still visible: twitter.com/search?q=%40ccriadoperez%20brother%20iphone&src=typed_query

That "biometric" ID mistake was not with a passport, but gave access to a phone, along with what is effectively a credit card (applepay).

I just don't understand why this wouldn't be a big deal.

gardenbird48 · 18/01/2021 14:47

I was thinking on about the protection about discrimination and the legal contortions that are put in place to allow complete ’concealment’ of a trans identity.

In theory if employer ’does not know’ about an employee’s trans identity (if the officially ‘don’t know’ regardless of any visual evidence), then that employee can’t claim any protection under Gender Reassignment because they can’t directly discriminate based on a characteristic that is invisible to them?

Indirect discrim might still be hard to prove as if an employer isn’t aware of the need to prevent something that causes indirect discrimination they can’t be held accountable. That’s why it is important to gather stats on people’s correct info.

A male born trans person would presumably experience little sex based discrimination eg on a basis of maternity etc - I guess equal pay might be relevant?

So by allowing a person to hide their protected characteristic, their protection again discrimination based on that pc is removed ?

Just a thought

MoleSmokes · 18/01/2021 16:37

@gardenbird48

I was thinking on about the protection about discrimination and the legal contortions that are put in place to allow complete ’concealment’ of a trans identity.

In theory if employer ’does not know’ about an employee’s trans identity (if the officially ‘don’t know’ regardless of any visual evidence), then that employee can’t claim any protection under Gender Reassignment because they can’t directly discriminate based on a characteristic that is invisible to them?

Indirect discrim might still be hard to prove as if an employer isn’t aware of the need to prevent something that causes indirect discrimination they can’t be held accountable. That’s why it is important to gather stats on people’s correct info.

A male born trans person would presumably experience little sex based discrimination eg on a basis of maternity etc - I guess equal pay might be relevant?

So by allowing a person to hide their protected characteristic, their protection again discrimination based on that pc is removed ?

Just a thought

The situation, as I understand it, is the same as the Protected Characteristic of Disability as far as the making of “reasonable adjustments” is concerned.

In employment, it is up to the employee to “identify” themselves as being disabled, ie. to volunteer the information that they have an objectively verifiable impairment or medical condition that affects their functioning for six months or longer.

(If I am out of date with this now, I am happy to be corrected. It is an area that I was very familiar with when I was working and as a union rep.)

A person with a “hidden disability” would be comparable to a totally “passing” trans employee.

The concept of ”identifying as” works fine for Disability, in Employment, State Benefits, etc.

When a Job Application form asks if someone “identifies as” having a Disability, it is an invitation to voluntarily disclose that information so that the Employer can meet their statutory duties. It might be very important for Health & Safety reasons, risks to other employees and/or the public.

For example (real example) someone who develops severe postural hypotension causing them to faint when they stand up should not be working on the glass roof of a public building. The employer or contractor might not be able to make “reasonable adjustments” or they might, eg. by redeployment to working at ground level, to an Admin role, etc.

However, before considering what adjustments might be reasonable, the Employer might very reasonably seek advice from Occupational Health.

With Disability, the Employer or State is entitled to respond to a “self declaration” by requiring objective verification.

The problem with self-declaration “identifying as” trans is that there is no possibility of objective verification. It is different to volunteering the information that one has been diagnosed with a recognised medical condition, eg. Gender dysphoria.

Stonewall and other trans advocacy groups are keen to stress that “you don’t need dysphoria to be trans”. This completely untethers “transgenderism” from any objective verification.

The EA2010 embeds the concept of Self-ID by misrepresenting the provisions of the GRA2004. The GRA2004 defines “transsexualism” as synonymous with “gender dysphoria” which, under the GRA2004, must be confirmed by two doctors.

The Protected Characteristic of “Gender Reassignment” under the EA2010 has been clarified by the EHRC to mean “transsexual” as defined in the GRA2004.

However, the protection under EA2010 kicks in as soon as someone proposes that at some time in the future they intend to undergo “gender reassignment” ie. obtain a GRC under the GRA2004. They don’t need to say when, just that it is something they intend to do in future. The stated intention is the start of the process of “gender reassignment” and Protection under the EA2010 starts right then.

In order to act on that stated intention the person would have to obtain a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which could be at any undefined and unlimited time in the future.

The EHRC “clarification” does not make sense.

The only way in which it could make sense is if, relying on the definition in GRA2004 as stated, protection under EA2010 instead kicked in at the point that someone successfully obtained a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. That is, objective verification of a medical diagnosis.

A doctor’s letter would do it. Just like anyone claiming protection for Disability due to a medical condition.

If the GRA2004 is repealed, and I would support that idea, something else does need to be done to clarify Protection under the EA2010. The logical thing to do IMHO would be to reinforce the definition in terms of a confirmed diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Arguably, there would then be no need for a separate Protected Category of “Gender Reassignment” as “gender dysphoria” would be covered by the Disability Protection.

A knock-on effect: Transgender athletes could compete in the Paralympics and be covered by Paralympic rules ensuring a level playing field.

ChattyLion · 18/01/2021 19:58

Also in the list of asks above if GRA is repealed: it should also be made law forbidding male criminals crime from being convicted, handled in court or reported in the media as though they were female criminals- no matter if they have a GRC or not. (Not to mention male criminals never again being able to be housed in the female prison estate)
It’s an absolute affront to the victims of these men (and to all women) to have male crimes referred to as having been perpetrated by women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4139845-Transgender-rapist-with-anatomy-of-a-man-jailed-for-15-years-local-newspaper-grapples-with-how-to-report-news-when-words-have-lost-their-meaning

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