Should the GRA be repealed ...

[NotAssigned]

... and if so how would that be achieved?

Being the nasty suspicious sort that I am, when people suggest ways to resolve this situation that clearly won't work I tend to wonder if that's because they don't actually want a solution that works, at least not for women. Most people are fundamentally selfish, though some are very good at persuading others that they're not.

(Dons asbestos suit)

I agree with pp there should be a piece of ID that does not have sex on it,

Why? Sex is the one aspect of a person's identity that can never change, no matter how it is disguised.

The point of ID is to prove the bearer's identity to a third party, not to themselves. It's frikkin pronouns all over again!

If a person insists on having their belief system logged in their identity document, then allow them to add it, not to delete reality.

And as for the issue of 'outing' them as trans - what's the big deal? Is being trans something to be ashamed of? Why is it any different to being a single mother or being born out of wedlock? We are not Victorians.

Why? Sex is the one aspect of a person's identity that can never change, no matter how it is disguised.

And, again, generally speaking sex is not successfully disguised, regardless of how much plastic surgery you throw at it. The cases where it is are so rare as to be barely worth taking into consideration when drafting laws or guidelines.

And, again, generally speaking sex is not successfully disguised, regardless of how much plastic surgery you throw at it.

Sex is relevant in many aspects of Safeguarding children and Vulnerable Adults.
The same is true for age. Despite many people wishing (for various reasons) to disguise or hide their age, identification documents do not enable this.

We need the act repealed and a refresh of what is culturally acceptable. Painting women who wish to protect single sex spaces has worked well for TRAs - so far.

A hand on the knee or an “accidental” breast touch used to be seen by some as men just being men. Sexual harassment was part and parcel of being a woman at work, and while it still happens, it is no longer seen as acceptable by most people.

We need the same NO WAY to men in women’s spaces once more. But this time it’s the allies that are making it harder.

Single sex means single sex. All this blag about when it does not mean single sex is just that, blagging your way in without the actual single sex refered to.

As a trans widow, my main concern in this respect is that the Spousal Exit Clause is not bargained away by anybody who is having an attack of female socialisation regarding us (ie feminists) having won the argument.

What harm could it do to have one piece of identification without sex on it? In the UK, the only things a driving licence is used for is for ID, age verification or proof of ability to drive. I can’t think of an instance where sex would be relevant to either age verification or ability to drive. As a form of ID for safeguarding purposes/employment rights - a driving licence is never acceptable on its own. The only way I can see it having an impact is that DBS applicants would need a passport / birth certificate in addition to the driving licence, but as you need passport / birth certificate anyway to prove right to work in the UK I really can’t see the harm.

I’m not saying I necessarily object to having sex recorded on a driving licence, I just think that if the aim is repeal of the GRA I’d personally like to acknowledge that for some people “revealing” their sex when buying wine would make them uncomfortable, so I’d like to offer an alternative. Unless there’s a risk to women’s rights.

All that said, I’m happy to be corrected if I’m wrong - I’ve certainly learned a lot on FWR under various usernames and I’m always grateful for responses to my questions.

Here is my idea: don't touch the GRA. But clarify who is entitled to access EA single sex services so that service providers cab offer female-only services.

I agree clarifying the EA is the more immediate and achievable priority (it doesn't require any new law, just clearer, better guidance).

I still think it's worth also thinking through how to tackle the GRA and do something in line with Art 8 .

R0 - I don't think the driving license as ID solution works because not everyone can have a driving license. Blind and partially sighted people for example and people with certain other disabilities?

I think the thing to do is seperate out :

1. data collected ( eg on register, passport application)
2. data displayed (on birth certificate, passport etc...)
3. data required (for CRB check, bank AML, immigration etc...)

Goodwin was about 2) . I think it may be a reasonable accommodation to say sex can be omitted (but not falsified) from the data displayed on any general purpose official ID document while also being clear on 3) - sometimes you need to know people's sex.

Not having your sex on your ID doesn't say anything about your special status - just that you checked the box on the application form to have sex not displayed.

I agree Lion. Driving has no relationship to sex (or presentation). You could argue that the DVLA don't need to store or process it for GDPR purposes.
I don't really understand how Debbie's set up would work practically.

LovelyLion I actually agree with removing sex from every day ID documents like drivers lic and equivalent.

If a persons sex needs to be identified for public purposes, such as if they are a suspect in a crime etc, then ether the persons perceived sex would be used (usually same as natal sex) and other documents can Be Referred to as needed to clarify if the person is trans (easier to find someone if they are identified as accurately as possible As eg a trans woman / trans id male rather than having to pick Just “woman” or “man).

R0 - I don't think the driving license as ID solution works because not everyone can have a driving license. Blind and partially sighted people for example and people with certain other disabilities?

Not everyone has a passport and many cannot afford one.

Latest estimates show that 75 per cent of all adults aged 17 and over in England (an estimated 33.6 million people) held a full car driving licence in 2018
RAC
www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility.

In 2016 while in the UK, 76 percent of people in England and Wales have [a passport]
Forbes
www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/#1dbf2ae63c16

Blind and partially sighted people for example and people with certain other disabilities?

The driving licence is one example of official identification which does not need to have a sex/gender/gender identity marker.

There should be other options of official id likewise where sex/ gender / gender identity is irrelevent and which are available to those unable to obtain a driving licence.

‘Sex is the one aspect of a person's identity that can never change, no matter how it is disguised.‘

I completely agree with you, I don’t think someone should be permitted to hide their sex at all. I would only agree to one piece of id not having sex on it, solely for the purpose of abiding by the Goodwin ruling.

Currently males are falsifying their documents, so when a male enters a female space and a woman complains to security, the man can produce falsified documents that say he is female (even though it is obvious to everyone he is male). While allowing people to remove their sex from a variety of documents may seem harmless, and could be in some circumstances, i.e. if it was only those who considered themselves trans that chose to remove it. The problem is that it will inevitably lead to the call for sex to be removed from everyone’s documents sooner or later, which would eventually lead to a similar situation we are in now, i.e. where we all know the person is male, but there are no documents proving it readily available. In other words I think it is a slippery slope. Trans lobby groups have already been pushing for sex to be removed from official documents.

Recently they have tried to get passports issued as ‘gender neutral’, but they didn’t succeed:

“During the hearing, Kate Gallafent QC, for Elan-Cane, argued that HM Passport Office policy breaches the right to respect for private life, and the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of gender or sex, under the European convention on human rights (ECHR).”

“Sir James Eadie QC, on behalf of the home secretary, submitted that the policy did not interfere with rights under the ECHR.
He argued that if the policy constituted an interference with article 8 – the right to respect for private life – it was justified by the need to “maintain an administratively coherent system for the recognition of gender”, to maintain security and to combat identity theft and fraud, and “to ensure security at national borders”.

“Mr Justice Jeremy Baker upheld Home Office policy after the court was told it would affect other legislation, cost too much to change computer records and increase the need for consular support abroad for gender-neutral British citizens.”
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/high-court-backs-uk-refusal-to-issue-gender-neutral-passports

The appeal also failed:
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gender-neutral-passport-court-appeal-home-office-a9230641.html%3famp

I don’t see why similar arguments that won that case couldn’t be used to argue for the removal of the GRA itself e.g. if repealing the GRA interferes with article 8 – the right to respect for private life – it can be justified, because retaining it causes too much conflict with other legislation, the ideology behind it harms children, weakens safeguarding etc.

Again the third space. Why are they not campaigning for a third space?

Add a "gender" box to all the databases. Sex + gender = gender identity. Done.

Because it's not sufficiently validating.

Men want access to our spaces with women in them.

Add a "gender" box to all the databases. Sex + gender = gender identity. Done.

No.... Definitely not. This institutionalises the idea that women are "cis" and share a characteristic with transwomen. If you have a separate gender marker then they will start using this.

People can have a traditionally female name, a feminine appearance in their picture and be called Miss/Mrs/Ms. But not "gender"

Not everyone has a passport

Yes, so having a passport with your sex on it is not obligatory (many people don't have one at all) and currently having your sex accurately on your passport is not obligatory (people are allowed to change it). I would prefer that people were allowed to have a passport without sex shown on it than the govt issue official docs which show the wrong sex.

My niece has a passport showing her sex as male. If you saw her she's obviously a woman.

Add a "gender" box to all the databases. Sex + gender = gender identity. Done.

No. I am not defined by other people's stereotypes.

I would prefer that people were allowed to have a passport without sex shown on it than the govt issue official docs which show the wrong sex.

In order to re-establish effective sex-based Safeguarding then relevent official documents should indicate sex accurately. Ommitting significant information (sex & DOB) is not effective Safeguarding.

These are some of the men (male of any age as per UK government useage & Equality Act) who are currently able to obtain female sex passports.

These are are some of the 'transwomen/ transsexuals' whose privacy we are being asked to prioritise.

'These are not our crimes' is a video that showcases a great piece of research by Kate Coleman, visually. It details crimes committed by men that have been recorded as crimes committed by women, and reported as such in the media.

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

It may be useful in many circumstances to apply such definitions (respectfully) in order to make the sense and implications clearer. This is particularly relevant in circumstances which concern the Safeguarding of children or Vulnerable Adults.

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man?

Transwomen politely told to try somewhere else

Because that always works, doesn't it?

How many times have you been told to "try somewhere else"? And yet here you are marking your spot, speaking over women and trying to dictate feminism to us.

Repeal the GRA and protect the transwidows and their children, not the men with fetishes.

Goodwin v. THE UNITED KINGDOM
Judgement STRASBOURG
11 July 2002

(extract)
"THE FACTS

I. THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CASE

12. The applicant is a United Kingdom citizen born in 1937 and is a post-operative male to female transsexual.

13. The applicant had a tendency to dress as a woman from early childhood and underwent aversion therapy in 1963-64. In the mid-1960s, she was diagnosed as a transsexual. Though she married a woman and they had four children, her conviction was that her “brain sex” did not fit her body. From that time until 1984 she dressed as a man for work but as a woman in her free time. In January 1985, the applicant began treatment in earnest, attending appointments once every three months at the Gender Identity Clinic at the Charing Cross Hospital, which included regular consultations with a psychiatrist as well as on occasion a psychologist. She was prescribed hormone therapy, began attending grooming classes and voice training. Since this time, she has lived fully as a woman. In October 1986, she underwent surgery to shorten her vocal chords. In August 1987, she was accepted on the waiting list for gender re-assignment surgery. In 1990, she underwent gender re-assignment surgery at a National Health Service hospital. Her treatment and surgery was provided for and paid for by the National Health Service.

14. The applicant divorced from her former wife on a date unspecified but continued to enjoy the love and support of her children." (continues)
    www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2002/588.html