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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should the GRA be repealed ...

341 replies

NotAssigned · 16/06/2020 23:52

... and if so how would that be achieved?

OP posts:
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7
ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 16/01/2021 13:01

@QuimReaper

Genuine question - is there a compelling reason why sex needs to be stated on passports?
Not sure.

Although not recording the sex of tourists would hide the fact that males make up a disproportionately high number of vistors to Thailand. If we don't know it's a 65%/35% split it would be harder to talk about possible reasons why men are more attracted to holiday in Thailand than women.

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/01/2021 13:03

This is the issue, not how politely we state our boundaries.

Quite.

When you think about it, it suggests that if female people would just ask male people, very nicely, "Please tell us the way you would like and feel polite enough to accept our 'no' and that we need spaces of our own?" it might work.

For a start: why is this something females have to beg males for, that is in the male gift if female people please them sufficiently? Isn't that seeing the whole thing in ridiculously sexist terms?

And secondly, it will fast come down to it: it has nothing to do with women not asking 'right', or being 'nice' enough or 'polite' enough, or looking unpleasantly (to males) unfeminine in their using unladylike language and terms and being more aggressive than is nice to see in a female person, and male people sadly waiting like disappointed daddies until little girls learn to do better.

It has to do with there is no way to achieve this agenda without removing all consent, say or rights from females. It's just a lot of timewasting sexism to avoid confronting the real subject and issues, largely because to do so makes male people look bad.

Hence phrases becoming important that make clear: in deciding what female language and boundaries are, it is ridiculous to be pleading nicely with males for a seat at the table to be allowed to participate with their betters making such decisions. Female people are the table.

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/01/2021 13:04

The phrase used in the blog is a witty expansion of a well known acronym and one that I like and use elsewhere at times -
Tired of Explaining Rreality to Fuckwits

ChattyLion · 16/01/2021 13:05

Not RTFT but to answer the OP yes. GRA needs repeal. It’s objectively not operating in the specific legal context it was enacted to address (wrt same sex marriage, equal pension age and so on now Ll longer being an issue). GRA’s actively causing problems for people with other protected characteristics who are finding their own rights to (say) use single sex services or have single sex spaces or opportunities are no longer respected.
This has a knock on effect for safeguarding culture and for women and children including those from vulnerable, disadvantaged or minority groups, to access public services, spaces, opportunities, education etc- by effectively excluding them because these are no longer single-sex use.

GRA fails badly for the people with protected characteristics relevant to GRA. It fails for GRC holders. It was so naively and poorly drafted to such a sexist agenda that eg It can’t be revoked for GRC holders not adhering to its own GRC requirement stipulations. It can’t be revoked even with the active consent of the GRC holder who no longer wants it. It’s a new legal status imposed until death. That’s ridiculous. It takes no account of detransitioning people.
It seems to have been written with an entirely woman-erasing agenda, written for older men who transition after having a family eg it takes no account of female biological issues such as pregnancy or birth at all.

I would like to see it repealed by Parliament after full democratic debate. That would need to happen after a detailed review of the GR Act had been carried out by the relevant government department including a full public consultation, to create a draft Bill setting out any necessary replacement measures to the GRA provisions. (Can’t think of any right now but the consultation may bring some up).
All that would need to be preceded by a Commons select committee inquiry into the working of the GRA which is actually impartial and also takes evidence from anyone who wants to submit. And publishes that evidence including anonymously on request..

BaronessWrongCrowd · 16/01/2021 13:10

@Helmetbymidnight

I saw this thread mentioned on Twitter - "Its a hateful attack on human rights" Grin Loads of anime 'kink' avators and that creepy no-mark comedian think MN should be shut down. This place is full of anti-abortionists too apparently.
Of course they do. Can't have women discussing things now can we? What these (and I'm struggling not to say anything that while get me a ban) MRA's people can't seem to get into their skulls is that not everything revolves around men.

There are forums on here that are a life line to women that have gone through some traumatic stuff and can reach out to other women who have gone through the same thing. Things that can ONLY happen to females, to women.

You shut Mumsnet down, you take away their support but I suppose that would make them dance with joy.

Be kind my arse.

ChattyLion · 16/01/2021 13:12

Now I’m starting to read this thread, so many great points on it. Michelle I hope you write or work in politics for a living because you’re bloody good at it.Star

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 13:19

and that creepy no-mark comedian think MN should be shut down

I can think of several Twitter regulars that might apply to Grin

As people have said, this place is a valuable resource for women. These crybully tactics are typical of coercive control abuse.

SunsetBeetch · 16/01/2021 13:21

@SapphosRock

No. I think it's enough that the GRA isn't going to be reformed and there will be extra protection for women's spaces.

Women have won. Why push it further and create more resentment and hostility?

I agree. And I don't see what repealing it would gain.

There is lots of other work to do which is important: getting rid of the Self ID that has crept in ahead of the law, undoing the harmful training/indoctrination of gender ideology, fighting Stonewall and Mermaids...

Also, people suggesting that sex dysphoria should be treated as an illness/disability: TRAs don't want this and have successfully lobbied the WHO to this end. It's surely a non-starter.

I don't like this or feel comfortable with it, sorry.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 13:21

You shut Mumsnet down, you take away their support but I suppose that would make them dance with joy.

It would. They don't care.

OldCrone · 16/01/2021 13:25

Also, people suggesting that sex dysphoria should be treated as an illness/disability: TRAs don't want this and have successfully lobbied the WHO to this end. It's surely a non-starter.

But if it's not an illness or disability, why does it need medical treatment?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 13:26

No. I think it's enough that the GRA isn't going to be reformed and there will be extra protection for women's spaces.

We don't know that the GRA won't be reformed. The WESC are currently publishing submissions about the GRA after gathering "evidence", yet again. If Labour get into power it's likely all sex exemptions will go. Women haven't won the war, just a couple of important battles, and I haven't seen any evidence of "extra protection for women's spaces" on the horizon.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 13:27

Quite, OldCrone.

Datun · 16/01/2021 13:29

Female people are the table.

This is true. And it is constantly, and increasingly resonating with me.

We are the cohort. We are the category.

This is our lives that are being discussed. Our sex. Our rights. The GRA undermines our rights.

Women make up over half the population of this country. We constitute half the electorate.

We have a fucking table and we can decide who sits there.

yourhairiswinterfire · 16/01/2021 13:35

@OldCrone

Also, people suggesting that sex dysphoria should be treated as an illness/disability: TRAs don't want this and have successfully lobbied the WHO to this end. It's surely a non-starter.

But if it's not an illness or disability, why does it need medical treatment?

Exactly. If it's not a medical issue, then what are the hormones for? Cosmetic reasons?

So why are the NHS covering cosmetic treatments for a certain group of people and not others?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 16/01/2021 13:37

I agree. And I don't see what repealing it would gain.

I think we need to at least have a honest assessment of the gra and how it has impacted on women, women's services and general safeguarding procedures.

If it's working well, why not prove it? Was the system designed to allow men to have both female and male id indefinitely? Is the gra making it easier for males to be placed in women's prisons and refuges or be able to hide their sex when working with vulnerable women and girls?

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/01/2021 13:39

I think it's enough that the GRA isn't going to be reformed and there will be extra protection for women's spaces.

I'm afraid as direct result of bitter experience in all this, I can't agree with your faith in the system.

All females have gained is a little breathing space. The current commission work is so biased to the point it's appearing actively bent; there is no recognition that when a TW speaks for a women's service they have extreme end bias in justifying their presence there and avoiding and denying any evidence to the contrary. We know from MNetters the women in the refuge who tried explaining to refuge leaders, TW among them, how they could not cope with mixed sex spaces, many ending in tears at how little the people they were speaking to cared, and by report from those MNetters those people went straight out to give a statement that no one had raised any issues .

The work is going on right now to make the 'protection of single sex spaces' as meaningless, difficult and unrealistic as possible, and to set this up so that it continues to work to the benefit of those born male.

The GRA is the first, big chunk of salami in the endless, quiet back room meeting, tea drinking, lobby group seeking to sneak this agenda in slice by tiny slice. Women's rights and needs are no less under attack than they were before. The only way to stop this endless assault is to get rid of the whole salami.

Women's rights, needs and provisions in law should never have been seen as a resource male people could draw on in the first place.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 13:45

Brilliant post Michelle

Deltoids1 · 16/01/2021 13:50

How many of us would have been aware of the GRA before they tried to reform it? I for one wasn’t aware of it. It’s about time this law had proper scrutiny because they certainly didn’t consult women about it back in 2004. It is bad law.

The Freddie McConnel case brought it home how shonky the GRA is. FM sighed a legal document changing their legal gender from female to male then days later went for female fertility treatment. And there were no consequences for effectively breaking the terms of a legally binding document.
Likewise there seems to be no way to rescind a GRC if the holder changes their mind.

Deltoids1 · 16/01/2021 13:51

Excellent use of the word salami Michelle

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 13:53

My thoughts also!

MiladyBerserko · 16/01/2021 13:59

Yes, it should.

Repeal the GRA has been hashing on Twitter for long time.

Good to see it now has a home

Datun · 16/01/2021 14:08

@Deltoids1

How many of us would have been aware of the GRA before they tried to reform it? I for one wasn’t aware of it. It’s about time this law had proper scrutiny because they certainly didn’t consult women about it back in 2004. It is bad law.

The Freddie McConnel case brought it home how shonky the GRA is. FM sighed a legal document changing their legal gender from female to male then days later went for female fertility treatment. And there were no consequences for effectively breaking the terms of a legally binding document.
Likewise there seems to be no way to rescind a GRC if the holder changes their mind.

Shonky indeed 😁

It's a piece of hopelessly sexist legislation, ratifying clothing and hair style into law, and then shocking itself into mute immobility when it doesn't work.

R0wantrees · 16/01/2021 14:52

Genuine question - is there a compelling reason why sex needs to be stated on passports?

There are many compelling reasons why sex should be accurately recorded on passports in the context of travel and security as well as when passports are used for Safeguarding purposes.

QuimReaper · 16/01/2021 15:26

Thanks all. I do still wonder if a lot of this could be avoided by sex being recorded but not prominently stated on official documentation. This would help for the cases where trans people are simply uncomfortable having MALE or FEMALE next to their name when they feel otherwise, without endangering any data.

QuimReaper · 16/01/2021 15:29

Sorry, posted to soon - meant to add:

In this day and age it ought to be quite possible to have that information stored in 'back end' data, but not actually printed on a physical card or passport. I know that doesn't get to the root of the problem, but it would solve the immediate issue for those described above, who just hate having a gender on their documents that they don't feel comfortable with. Maybe technology isn't quite sufficiently advanced for that kind of overhaul though.

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