TRA friend and BLM

[maudavery]

I have a very woke friend, she has always been very outspoken on the trans issue but on social media she is surprisingly quiet at the minute, perhaps because JKR has made such brilliant points that it is difficult to argue against. So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white) about racism and recommend lots of reading. It is normal during this reading to feel defensive and uncomfortable she says. She invites us to DM her so that we can talk about these feelings. She doesn’t intend to sounds preachy and self righteous. She has then listed about 50 forms of covert white supremacy. Some of them I am aware of eg white hero complex, after the Stacey Dooley affair, (but then I wonder, is my friend not demonstrating this herself in her incessant drive to educate others about racism on behalf of people of a different race?)

I always thought not being racist was fairly straightforward- judge people by the content of the character, not the colour of their skin. But apparently this is no longer the case. I need to educate myself (I read very widely and have always read a lot of books by BAME authors, but she is recommending non fiction on the issue of race itself). I’m struggling with it to be honest. “White silence” is a covert act of white supremacy but then because there are seemingly an infinite amount of ways I can be covertly racist, no wonder people are silent because there are so many Microaggressions and covert forms of racism that to say anything at all is risky. (Eg it is racist to tell a black person they are “articulate”) But silence is violence. I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too.

For the record, I work at an outstanding inner city school with a high amount of BAME students. Day in and day out For the last 5 years I have built up relationships with kids of all backgrounds and led my department so that the students achieve excellent academic outcomes. I have diversified the curriculum, but I have also tried to change the curriculum to ensure it is academically challenging and gives our students the “cultural capital” that their more advantaged peers take for granted. I think this is a more meaningful demonstration of my own antiracism than posting a black square on my Instagram, but the former is me being a “white saviour” while the latter is “violence” through silence.

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism. I also think the conflation of race with certain political beliefs is problematic in itself - a point Priti Patel made well I thought the other day - (although I am not a fan of hers AT ALL) but she seems to have shut down for not being the right kind of race or not having had the right experienced racism - which is surely racist in itself? I was horrified and sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I do not feel personally responsibility or guilt for it though which apparently makes me a racist monster.

I’m wondering if i should engage in a dialogue with my friend about this as she has invited this but wonder if it wouldn’t end well.

[quote Melia100]Here's an article for your friend, if you decide to engage, OP.

It's written by a man of colour, in the Guardian, so it should tick her boxes for 'allowed to listen to'.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/14/white-privilege-is-a-lazy-distraction-leaving-racism-and-power-untouched[/quote]
I suspect that article wouldn't be acceptable to the friend as Kenan Malik is of Indian origin.

I don't think the criticism of Priti Patel is that she's a race traitor. I'm sure there may be an element of that in some of the criticisms, but by and large, people simply disagree with her rightwing views. She appeared to use the fact that had experienced racism herself in the past to justify her dismissal of BLM campaigners' demands. But her experience is individual, and also, her experience isn't of anti-black racism (black experiences might not be identical to Asian ones). Black MPs felt she was trying to silence their voices by using hers.
The fact she is an Asian MP can't be used to give her immunity from political criticism or to give her a privileged role in assessing BLM. This alleged stuff about being treated as a race traitor was whipped up by her Tory supporters to insulate her from that political criticism.

you sound nice, thoughtful and intelligent; she sounds like a bigoted twerp one step away from sending you to the gulag

Fortunately we don't send people to the gulag but your friend might have the power to remove people from jobs or block promotion or block speakers or block free speech and discussion.

Someone like your friend got an AIBU thread discussing the self- admitted extreme hard left wing views of the organisation in the US behind BLM trademark as it were and the BLM UK funding page. There was nothing in that thread which was not lifted direct from their own websites but pointing out that black lives matter is not the same as Black Lives matter is wrong think.

When looking at US BLM demands that might seem extreme to us, it's important to bear in mind the very different context in the US: the number of black people shot dead annually by their police is 300 times greater (or 63 times after adjusting for population), the numbers of black people dying in custody are 3 times greater after adjusting for population, the prison population is 4 times greater after adjusting for population, and so on. The US police is heavily armed, heavily militarised and out of control. So to call for it to receive a lot less funding (and funding instead channelled into drug abuse programmes, anti-poverty programmes, rehabilitation etc) actually makes a lot of sense.

Sorry, it is the number shot dead that is 300 times greater, not the number of black people shot dead.

I tend to agree that Di Angelo is a clever writer who's been very successful at milking money out of people and not at all successful at creating structural change. Except possibly at Evergreen College, where her theories did indeed create a change, but not in any sense a helpful one.

(Possibly worth doing some reading about Evergreen for people who've never lived in the US who're struggling to come to terms with some of the US based discussion that's currently leaking into British political discourse. It might help explain both why it's such a poor fit and what happens when any theory that seems initially promising is enthusiastically embraced without too much thinking being done about how it's all meant to work in practice. Mostly relevant to Brits because part of the British left is reading the same books that the people running Evergreen were.)

I'd like to gently add that there's often an assumption on the behalf of people who've just run across the idea of anti racism for the first time within the last few months and who're in the evangelical phase of the I have a shiny new idea cycle that nobody who they're addressing has ever come across these ideas before. That assumption is often incorrect. I've been talking about this stuff since I was a child, but from a slightly different perspective to either the people behind BLM one or the white British one (long story, basically the closest friends of my parents were Central and South American so I grew up with the Latino version of this discussion, which is similar in some ways and different in others). We have multiple regulars who're black or Asian Brits, and other people from other parts of the world, and everyone is bringing their own life experiences to the table, so "read Di Angelo she changed my life and will change yours in the same way" may not be greeted with the enthusiasm that you were expecting, and it's not necessarily because of a reluctance to confront racism that you're not getting the response you were hoping for.

I'm sorry to hear that you're having such a shit time right now, RoughSeas. Since your DH has already picked up on the fact that something is troubling you maybe talk it through with him? Probably won't be an easy conversation but better than ruminating by yourself to the point that it's undermining your relationship.

It's not just those who are shot. Every time I hear about the prison system in the US I want to weep. There are more than 2.2 million black people in prison. Here in the UK less than 90,000 in total.

The US is what, five times the population of the UK? Yet has 20+ times as many black people (Latino, Asian and indigenous people are counted separately) in gaol.

Tell me, someone, that I've got my back-of-an-envelope maths wrong here because the reality is unbearable.

US prisons are basically profit making enterprises, so there's an incentive to increase the prison population in addition to the racism that distorts who's most likely to end up there.

It seems to me that BAME should drop the ME as minority ethnic people clearly have not received the memo and do naughty things such as becoming Conservative MPs, getting the best exam results, becoming doctors/lawyers/accountants etc. And of course many B people likewise should get out of the club.

These virtue wokers are displaying the worst kind of white saviour behaviour - they actually want to keep down “victims” ; it’s all about trying to be seen to be good, rather than actually doing any.

But her experience is individual, and also, her experience isn't of anti-black racism

I don't get this? All experiences are individual? Is there a hierarchy of types of racism? Are some forms of racism better than others?

"She sounds like a bigoted twerp one step away from sending you to the gulag"
Hardly surprising as BLM is a Marxist organisation closely involved with Hamas. The hoarding around Churchill is being removed today for Macron's visit who has informed his French compatriots that not a single statue or painting will be removed in La Republique.

She appeared to use the fact that had experienced racism herself in the past to justify her dismissal of BLM campaigners' demands

transdimensional

Priti Patel was responding to accusations that she knew nothing about racism. Her family was expelled from Uganda because of racism. She has been portrayed as a cow with a ring through its nose. In the Guardian. And when she speaks about her experience of growing up in the 1970s and being called a p*ki, the response of the left is to tell her she's 'gaslighting' Labour MPs. The hatred directed at Priti Patel by people claiming that they are against racism is quite astonishing.

@DidoLamenting

you sound nice, thoughtful and intelligent; she sounds like a bigoted twerp one step away from sending you to the gulag

Fortunately we don't send people to the gulag but your friend might have the power to remove people from jobs or block promotion or block speakers or block free speech and discussion.

Someone like your friend got an AIBU thread discussing the self- admitted extreme hard left wing views of the organisation in the US behind BLM trademark as it were and the BLM UK funding page. There was nothing in that thread which was not lifted direct from their own websites but pointing out that black lives matter is not the same as Black Lives matter is wrong think.

Well said.

Again for those who're not getting it - racism, like misogyny, does not become harmless or justified when aimed at people who you dislike or whose views you don't approve of. Even if you don't give a shit what happens to those people or how it makes them feel (a questionable perspective morally, imo) the reality is that a culture in which it's OK for racism or misogyny to be aimed at some people is a culture in which they may eventually be aimed at anyone (including you, if you can't bring yourself to care about anyone else). Racism and misogyny are blunt instruments that create a lot of splash damage - you cannot deploy them in a way that only harms your intended target.

Apparently it's because as white people we seek out views which are most "palatable" to us

So that justifies her choosing to only accept one POV from anyone who is black, or even non-white?

It sounds like she doesn't even understand the question.

Yes. Get the extended warranty too.

@Shedbuilder

It's not just those who are shot. Every time I hear about the prison system in the US I want to weep. There are more than 2.2 million black people in prison. Here in the UK less than 90,000 in total.

The US is what, five times the population of the UK? Yet has 20+ times as many black people (Latino, Asian and indigenous people are counted separately) in gaol.

Tell me, someone, that I've got my back-of-an-envelope maths wrong here because the reality is unbearable.

The prison industry in the US is mind-boggling and horrible. And there are serious problems with policing, some of which relate to defunding in other areas.

What I worry about with the BLM focus is that even in the US it seems clear that racism is probably a secondary factor around who experiences police violence, it's more often a matter of correlation around socioeconomic factors. So will a focus on race as the cause really provide answers to the problem?

The main question seems to be, why do poor neighbourhoods experience so much more police violence? Who is advantaged by that? And given that this affects people across many race demographics, shouldn't it be possible to form a larger, broader political coalition oriented to addressing these problems? Would alleviating poverty be a place to start?

I always come back in US based discussions to the fact that the #1 thing that would help the poor would be the introduction of some form of universal health care.

Both Holly and Joe credit the Black Lives Matter movement for deeper self-reflection now.

Holly's apologised for her past behaviour and says she is working to educate herself more about black history.

"Everyone has been glad that I've apologised and admitted what I did was wrong," she says.

Joe acknowledges the protests have made him want to "rectify the pain he caused".

It does sound like a "struggle session" in the Communist Party of the Republic of China.

It does sound like a "struggle session" in the Communist Party of the Republic of China. - yes yes yes.

This is a really good book - tragic and heartbreaking - www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Death-Shanghai-Cheng-Paperback/dp/B00M0E81G4/ref=sr_1_2?hvlocphy=9045997&hvnetw=g&keywords=life+and+death+shanghai&hvadid=259134121369&qid=1592399523&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw_qb3BRAVEiwAvwq6VkYtZLfKAv8uaNBP6q98pjF_0bclCkhHQolFqobQm5f4cx_9w6t55xoC2wEQAvD_BwE&hydadcr=18710_1774000&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-314895851446&adgrpid=55922150871&hvrand=3705277323761671895&sr=8-2

describes the 'self denouncements' and trials perfectly (Communist China not today).

BovaryX

I think your post really highlights the fact that we seem to have some sort of league table for the most oppressed people - who are obviously not WHITE.
Priti Patel is being criticised because on the "Ethnic Pantone" chart, she is clearly not dark skinned enough to be black, so therefore her racist experiences do not count.
This whole thing has degenerated into a - "You can never be as oppressed as me" scenario, with one person saying that every white person should look at themselves three times in a mirror each morning.
I don't do collective guilt or collective punishment.
Everyone should be judged individually.

@andyoldlabour

BovaryX

I think your post really highlights the fact that we seem to have some sort of league table for the most oppressed people - who are obviously not WHITE.
Priti Patel is being criticised because on the "Ethnic Pantone" chart, she is clearly not dark skinned enough to be black, so therefore her racist experiences do not count.
This whole thing has degenerated into a - "You can never be as oppressed as me" scenario, with one person saying that every white person should look at themselves three times in a mirror each morning.
I don't do collective guilt or collective punishment.
Everyone should be judged individually.

andy

I agree. It's just dire. I have seen some appalling racism on this forum in the last week. But apparently it's okay because its target is Priti Patel. Racism is another word which has been redefined by the Newspeak dictionary. It can't apply to Conservatives at all.

What is weird though is there is certainly truth to the statement that the collective experience of one BAME community is not the same as another, and it affects those communities differently.

That's part of the problem with the acronyms, or even the concept of "black" because you are not talking about one group of people.

And yet it somehow turns around so that in asserting that there is just another inappropriate generalisation being made, another warped lens being applied.

I am coming to the conclusion that the problem is that the concepts, even the concept of racism in many cases, are simply not fine enough tools to do the job we are asking of them. They reduce experiences and they reduce patterns into something too simplistic to be useful.

If we look at racism in the World today, some of it is very distinctive and doesn't just affect black people. Take for instance the cases of racism towards Maoris and Aborigines by the people who have settled in Australia and New Zealand. Then there is the racism in the Middle East/Gulf states, where they use slave labour largely from South Eastern Asia. We only have to look at refugee camps in Syria and closer to home in Italy and France to realise the tensions and violence between people from the Middle East (Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran) and other refugees/migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa.
The hatred of Jewish people is a racist issue and has been for centuries. The expulsion of Asian people from Uganda by Idi Amin was definitely racist. Finally, the targeting of young, white girls by grooming gangs, composed of men from one particular country was racist, the comments of the perpetrators in subsequent trials proved that.