Men get their own loos - women's made unisex!

[MissLawls]

This is just down the road from me and it's where I often shop. In fact, I'm going there tomorrow. Appalled by this! I'm sure men had cubicles in their loos so why the change? Why is it always women asked to budge up to make toilets more inclusive!? Glad to see lots of men are objecting to this too!

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/seats-left-up-puddles-pee-4225944

I'm sure that the rationale for this will be that men's toilets have urinals, so can't be made mixed sex

I am sooooo old that I can remember when "not enough loos" or "No ladies toilets" was the excuse used not to employ women in many many jobs and sectors of employment (scientists, engineers, mechanics)

@AsSurprisedAsYouAre

I honestly don't get all this, at my place of work we don't have gendered toilets because every toilet is a lockable cubicle and each lockable cubicle has a sanitary bin in it .. if they're behind a locked door what does it matter if the person inside using it standing up or sitting down or has inny or outy genitals? I am not bothered by seeing men or anyone else wash their hands, which is all that happens in the communal space so... what's the issue? Honestly? Lots of places like coffee shops only have one bathroom for everyone - men/women/babychange/accessible users.. we cope then? Isn't this a non-issue?

For you yes.

For women who aren't allowed to be alone with strange men, or don't want to be alone with strange men it's a massive issue.

For young women embarrassed about periods and not wanting to be in a cubicle next to a man while they grapple with sanitary products it's a big deal.

For women with small children and pushchairs who can't quite close the door properly but doesn't mind too much because it's only other women in there it's important.

For the woman with children old enough to be left outside the cubicle and wait it's reassuring that only other women and children will be in that space.

For women needing to escape on a night out from a 'handsy' man or a bad date it's a good place to go.

It's not just about you. Is it

@AsSurprisedAsYouAre

I honestly don't get all this, at my place of work we don't have gendered toilets because every toilet is a lockable cubicle and each lockable cubicle has a sanitary bin in it .. if they're behind a locked door what does it matter if the person inside using it standing up or sitting down or has inny or outy genitals? I am not bothered by seeing men or anyone else wash their hands, which is all that happens in the communal space so... what's the issue? Honestly? Lots of places like coffee shops only have one bathroom for everyone - men/women/babychange/accessible users.. we cope then? Isn't this a non-issue?

If they'd made the gents unisex then it would be less of an issue.

They left the men with single sex provision and made the ladies open to everyone unisex.

Extra crazy because everyone knows the ladies is busier than the gents. The gents has urinals, the ladies doesn't. Obviously if one is to be made unisex it should be the gents. They didn't do that though.

Isn't it "illegal" to have mixed toilets, where the cubicle walls and door are floor to ceiling and have self contained wash basins?

I also remember the no ladies loos excuse being given to me by a company I'd applied to. Unisex name on cv so they called me for interview without realising

And having to go to a different building to have access to a toilet because they'd only put men's toilets in the whole building (many occasions, different buildings).

@exwhyzed you make some excellent points, thank you. For example I'd never considered the number of times in my youth that I'd hidden from guys in pubs with my girlfriends in the loos. I assume you didn't mean to be quite as confrontational as you came across though (you certainly didn't need to be, I was posting in good faith). I think it's a desperate shame that on forums like this the art of conversation seems to be lost under argument and attack. People only seem to want to post and have their POV agreed with unconditionally. But still, aggressive tone aside, you make excellent points on the occasions women only toilets are important.

Today 15:12Greenkit

Isn't it "illegal" to have mixed toilets, where the cubicle walls and door are floor to ceiling and have self contained wash basins?

aren't

@feedmecheese

I'm sure that the rationale for this will be that men's toilets have urinals, so can't be made mixed sex.

Slightly off topic, but I am starting to think that we need a movement to ban urinals. It would mean that:

1. Men would have to cue for longer at public toilets so perhaps buildings would be built with bigger toilet facilities- and since the space for female toilets seems to be based on the space needed for men, we might get better facilities too.
2. No excuse for men to have their penises out other behind a closed cubicle door so easier to spot indecent behaviour (eg flashing at young boys). Might also make it easier for fathers to take young daughters to the toilet.
3. All toilets are cubicle only so no reason why the male toilet can't become unisex if that's what they want.

Only flaw in this is that I suspect men would just piss in the street.

I actually agree with this. My DH wont use urinals as hes too self conscious and dosent like the idea of it (hes very body shy even at home). So to make more cubicles in the mens would make things so much better for him. Likewise I know he would feel completely uncomfortable using unisex toilets in settings such as intu. I do think unisex toilets can work, but they need to be introduced as additional toilets and not by removing male or usually female toilet spaces.

AsSusrprisedAsYouAre It wasn't aggression it was frustration at a very narrow and sheltered view, but I appreciate it's sometimes difficult to get tone across online.

You must appreciate though how frustrating it is to constantly have to explain to other women why some women and girls might not want men in their toilets and other spaces. It's not fair for the people who don't mind, to give away the rights of access and privacy of those who really do mind.

@AsSurprisedAsYouAre

When you have unisex toilets, assults on women increase. That is the issue. You also find hidden cameras, which men have placed there. And men regularly do no close the door when they urinate or start snipping and getting it out before they are actually in the cubicle.

The main issue though, is the increase in assaults.

It doesnt really matter if you're workplace is great and it al works fine. That isnt a universal guarantee.

The only way it should be allowed is to have completely enclosed rooms with a toilet, sink, and dryer and sanitary bin. And those completely enclosed rooms (floor to ceiling doors and walls) need to be off the main walkthrough area so that women arent walking down quiet corridors or through enclosed areas separate from the main public area where they are then at risk.

*unzipping not snipping

When I had a pram with me and needed the toilet, I'd often go with the cubicle door open and the pram in front of it. I am past that stage now but I've seen other women do the same. I think many would be uncomfortable doing this in mixed sex toilets.

My male partner won't use the toilets at work when the female cleaner is in, there's a sign up when she is in there so he usually waits. I'm sure he isn't the only man who would feel awkward about it so I would question the motives of the men who do choose to use the mixed sex toilets. I'd be worried about voyeurs and spy cams.

Breaking the law on 2 counts then.

One for mixed sex toilets that are not self contained units.

And 2 if the mens is still the mens they are actively treating women less favourably as they have no single sex spaces and the men do.

Better lawyer up I guess...

Taking away is never the answer, urinals are great on many levels, firstly male cubical are often filthy, I don't want my sons going in there, second my adult son says he feels safer using an urinal as you can't get trapped in as easily. Male on male violence is rife.

BobbieDraper yes risk generally should be one of the main considerations but I also think it's important to keep highlighting all of the micro day to day reasons that are purely about putting women's comfort and dignity first, rather than getting into how likely we are to be harmed by men. It's too easy for people to write off the serious stuff as 'rare', or the fault of a few individuals.

In mixed changing areas in the local swimming pool there absolutely is an increase to me in the risk of being raped, or flashed or secretly recorded, but actually on a day to day level I'm personally more concerned that a group of teenage boys will get an eyeful when my toddler flings the door open, or that I don't really want to have to answer questions from them about my 'bum hair' any time but especially not with an elderly gentleman getting changed next to me.

I think even nice men and boys also massively underestimate just how intimidating their presence can be to many women, especially when men are in groups.

Privacy, dignity, Safety.

I’m confused - have they closed the men’s toilets? Or do the men have the option of either toilet now?
On a side note, I read a really interesting book a couple months ago about how the world was designed for men - they discussed that when malls etc design their toilet facilities, they dedicate the same sq ft to both men and women, however fail to take into consideration that urinals take up less space than a cubicle, therefore you can get more in. For example, the women’s bathroom could have 4 cubicles, but the men’s could have 3 urinals and 2 cubicles, meaning that more men are able to relieve themselves at the same time than women. In addition, women tend to urinate more times per day than men, and we take longer doing so (undressing etc) as well as the mall tending to be visited by more females than males. And quite often we will have a child or elderly relative that we have to consider as well. Hence why there’s usually a queue for the ladies rather than the men’s!

Getting rid of urinals altogether so everyone uses a cubicle sounds like a solution, but we have heard that men sometimes don't shut the door behind them and we know they are not all good with their aim. Some may spray everywhere and many will leave the seat up (like they may do at home). Lastly, I am informed that men in a hurry will sometimes urinate into a handbasin. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Nope. We need our single sex spaces and that's that. Obviously nobody wants to be demanding birth certificates or prying into anyone's underwear, though! So if someone presenting as female pops in, uses the cubicle and basin hygienically and pops out without causing a ripple, we don't have a problem, do we? It's probably been happening forever. It the Yaniv types who want to make a song and dance and peer under doors asking if any girls want help inserting a tampon (what would they know about it anyway and who wants help from a loud stranger in a public toilet?) that give me shivers. That and the openly male predators looking for opportunities to commit assault who will be able to barge in unchallenged. Yes, they could do it now, but chances are someone would say, "Oi, you!" and if former ladies' loos are unisex, nobody will.

Of course there are cubicles in the men's. They shit too.

More reasons to shop online. Sigh.

This is what they always do. They need to be reminded that humans are not divided into the categories Men and Other.

Men cannot have privileges removed. Only added. Same old, same old.

So if someone presenting as female pops in, uses the cubicle and basin hygienically and pops out without causing a ripple, we don't have a problem, do we? It's probably been happening forever

it's in this area where the TRA have probably caused the most damage and shown it's not actually about Trans rights but about controlling women and getting access to their spaces.

In the past I personally never had an issue with trans women/ transexuals using the ladies.

But the TRAs couldn't accept that other women might not be comfortable and demanded access at all costs.

They gave legitimacy to people like Yaniv to enter women's spaces and they have made people like me who were previously reasonably open to transwomen using women only spaces (as long as they weren't causing any harm) determined to keep women's spaces single sex due to the risks of predatory men abusing self ID.

Seems a bit of an own goal if the end goal truly was greater tolerance of trans people in society (I suspect it wasn't).

Just spoken to DH ( we live 20 miles away) ... there are cubicles in the men's loos.
We won't be going 'up'anley' again!

The goal of TRAs has never been to help those transwomen who were already using the women's loos without creating any fuss. The goal is to create a situation in which someone like Beardy Alex can walk into the women's loos and every woman in there will be too scared of getting in trouble for objecting to say anything.

www.feministcurrent.com/2019/05/02/stonewall-has-sold-out-lesbians-and-its-time-they-be-held-to-account/

Surely the most sensible option would be a urinal space and then individual lockable toilets with sinks etc. for anyone not happy to use a urinal.