Today's Guardian - the trans kids helped by a pioneering project

[pachyderm]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/15/trans-transgender-children-gender-family-project

Children of seven and twelve years old, just heartbreaking.

I would get banned for saying what I want to say about the writer of this piece.

A class discussion at 12 can pinpoint these reasons/possibilities as to why people behave how they do. Yet they seem to elude trained professionals...

I am in the same social circle a a local person who is a child psychologist and works at a gender clinic, and yes, seems to have just a bizarre take on kids and gender issues.

I realised though, having attended a book group with this person, that the bizarre takes are not confined to that area. She seems to generally misunderstand a lot of things that people say when we discuss the books, and often gets entirely the wrong idea about what is going on in the story as well.

It's difficult to imagine how anyone like that could operate as a psychologist at all, but apparently it happens.

She seems to generally misunderstand a lot of things that people say when we discuss the books, and often gets entirely the wrong idea about what is going on in the story as well

Do you think its intentional? In that the only way it could be believed they feel and think the way they do is if they create the illusion that they are indeed that dim. Maybe it ensures no one asks you too many questions ?

On the other are the vast majority of mental health professionals who study gender dysphoria insisting that affirming a child in whatever way they express their gender is beneficial to their mental health.

Could they possibly mean affirming a child to express themeselves without claiming this then means their sex is wrong?! Wishful thinking ....

I am always surprised by the Gillick competence angle. Gillick competence just means some children have the capacity to make decisions regarding their healthcare. It's often used in addition the the Fraser guidelines when prescribing contraception to a 15 year old, for example.
Capacity is also not either present or absent but dependent on the situation. Pretty sure if a 12 year old had a headache and they said they didn't want to take paracetamol most people would leave them to it. But if the same 12 year old needed heart surgery or their life would be limited/without it they could suffer serious harm and they refused the case would probably end up in court for a judge to weigh up as the impact of the decision is so serious.

For something as major as medical/surgical transition I'm surprised it's ever given the go ahead on the principal of Gillick competency so easily as surely there is a risk of severe/permanent harm. Also the arguement of 'best interests' is debatable.

And also key, consent under coercion is not consent. Consent is not valid if a young person is being pressured or influenced by someone else.

And also key, consent under coercion is not consent. Consent is not valid if a young person is being pressured or influenced by someone else

I can think of three people in the public eye so far who have been seen to openly invite youngsters to private message them and that they will be their new aunty/ glitter family

Mermaids themselves had a digi fest not that long ago, so kids could spend all day online watching and listening to trans people and their stories. Although openly advertised and if parents had looked at the site they would have known about it. But again of course to kids it's going to look appealing when they can see all the smoking and the laughter and the emojis and messages scrolling up the sides of the screen and the amount of money raised going up and up and up.

They also had a stall at pride with a dog and sweets.

Schools have their web site linked to on their websites too and kids can private message and talk about their bodies etc

It must be extremely hard when even the bbc show documentaries aimed at children with drs saying how harmless and reversible the blockers are , to established whether there has been any influence or coercion at all.

We have already seen from screen shits that if you do the live chat with mermaids they will not attempt to ask what could cause a ten yr old to be so unhappy with their breasts and go straight to advising how to wear binders more safely

Smoking
Smiling. God my phone loves to muck me about

*Why can't the same energy be put into tearing down gender stereotypes and eradicating gender rather than irrevocably damaging our children's bodies?+

because without stereotype they can't see difference between woman/man. when erasing biology, there's other standard for what being women.

@SarahTancredi

Screen shits

Oh god dont get me started I do not know what is wrong with my phone today...

Young people looking for their glitter family can go to reddit's trans adoption sub. There they can find an older trans person to mentor them through transition.

www.reddit.com/r/TransAdoption/

They have a warning pinned that GC feminists have discovered the sub, so youngsters should be careful cause GC women are fetishists. I'd laugh if I wasn't so fucking disgusted with their wilful disregard for the safety of children.

I saw that the other day

I wish the necessary bodies could remove the rainbow and glitter tinted glasses and see it for what it really is. This invisibility cloak has given some far to much confidence in their actions that they just cannot handle and have naturally lead to pushing the boundaries even more. And yet still it doesnt seem to be enough to get the whole thing stopped.

You know it's bad when asking a safeguarding question about a vulnerable child gets you removed from the premises because a trans person on the stage doesnt feel "safe" about a question that wasnt even about them.

Do you think its intentional? In that the only way it could be believed they feel and think the way they do is if they create the illusion that they are indeed that dim. Maybe it ensures no one asks you too many questions?

Oh, no, I'm sure that isn't the case. I think part of what happens is that she has a very inflexible idea of what other people are likely to think, or ought to think. She's often clearly quite surprised when people have an opinion that seems unexpected , and sometimes upset if it's something she finds challenging.

I got as far as ”birth-assigned sex"

God that sounds hard work goose

Surely there are many parts of psychology that arent necessarily about right and wrong answers in the beginning but exploring why they feel that way and what could be contributing and listening to everything whether its upsetting or surprising? How else do you rule things out ir work out what pathway would suit someone etc ?

Disclaimer: I’ve been observing for several years on these boards. I am GC and I disagree with hormone blockers and I think the whole thing will unravel badly for many. I am worried and concerned about the whole Trans issue. I find the article very worrying and unquestioning

But
Please please be careful when randomly throwing about the idea that women (only women mind) with Munchausen’s by Proxy are the drivers of the trans kids thing. Especially when in the situations described where the dads are not on board with the trans idea

We could get really confused here. My own experiences of a child with some issues and a diagnosis of ADHD have led me to see many, many many examples both in RL and on the SEN boards here (under a different name) of the dads of children like mine being extremely obstructive and in denial about their child’s very real ADHD and ASD condition. To the point of not allowing the child or mother help, to seek help, or to receive any therapies or medications. I myself had a job getting my DP on board when my DS was having real difficulties. Guess what - it’s complicated - but it’s no surprise in our household that my DP now has the same diagnosis as my DS. In his words he ‘thought that was normal as that’s how I was as a child’. There are endless women on SEN whose partners are themselves ASD and ADHD and can’t see the agony their kids are in, endless grandparents refusing to engage with a real diagnosis from CAMHS and saying the kids ‘just needs some discipline’, causing real harm.

I myself have been blamed and doubted as a mother for seeking help for my son. I was told I was ‘perceiving’ the enormous meltdowns that were pulling our lives apart. I was not. it was awful. For this reason I am incredibly sensitive to this sort of situation

We simply can’t get into blaming women, again, for being the ones driving these interventions. We will be back to the idea of refrigerator parents (google it) before we know it.

How are we to help these families? TheY do need help. The problems they are having are real enough.

It comes down to CAMHS resources again. And having good people. (Jeezus I have flashback about a particular psychiatrist - she didn’t know some quite basic things; but also I’ve met some gems).

I hope not to have derailed but let’s not have ‘hysterical women’ tropes?

Sorry I see the thread has moved on considerably while I was composing that- I was referring to the first page.

@unwashedanddazed
Christ! That one's even worse. Can people not hear (or read) themselves?
So, your toddler's bawling and you just carry on with applying the make up, slowly coming to the conclusion that something may have to change soon instead of taking your head out of your arse NOW and comfort your crying child? Why?!

Please please be careful when randomly throwing about the idea that women (only women mind) with Munchausen’s by Proxy are the drivers of the trans kids thing.

This is from the NHS link I posted this morning:
In around 85% of reported cases of FII, the child's mother is responsible for the abuse. However, there have been cases where the father, foster parent, grandparent, guardian, or a healthcare or childcare professional was responsible.

It appears to me (although I can't quote any statistics on this) that it tends to be mothers driving the idea that their children are trans more than their fathers, although I can think of a few cases where the father seems as invested in the idea as the mother.

It is also a non-illness (hence the suggestion of MBP). None of the descriptions of the 'symptoms' of the children in the Guardian article indicate that the children need to be medicated. No healthy child of normal pubertal age needs puberty blockers, and 14-year-old girls should never be on testosterone.

Please don't accuse women on here of throwing around 'hysterical women' tropes. I was simply making an observation that mothers tended to be the ones who think their child needs to go to a gender clinic. Do you think my observations are incorrect? A PP made an interesting point that this might be the case because women are more likely to be the primary carers for their children rather than because of anything innate in women which makes them more likely to suffer from MBP or to think their child is trans.

Surely there are many parts of psychology that arent necessarily about right and wrong answers in the beginning but exploring why they feel that way and what could be contributing and listening to everything whether its upsetting or surprising? How else do you rule things out ir work out what pathway would suit someone etc ?

Yes, I have no idea how she functions in her work. But it has really disabused me of the idea that someone n that line of work needs to be insightful and able to understand other people. Or themselves even.

Oh no @oldcrone I don’t think you’re wrong, It’s just I’ve been on the wrong side of that conversation though and the idea of the mother who is overplaying her child’s illness is rife in CAMHS. We need to take some care not to get all these things mixed up.

I guess what I’m seeing is the trans child idea is an ‘easy out’ or all sorts of parents whose kids do indeed have genuine problems with confidence, bullying, adjusting to puberty, autism, or indeed family problems of all kinds (inc abuse or veiled prejudice against having a gay or lesbian child).

They do need some kind of help. That help (great support from CAMHs and education) is more expensive to provide. CAMHS is almost impossible to access in this country, so it’s not a surprise that a ’silverbullet’ proves attractive

This is horrendous. I honestly wish the Guardian would be investigated for publishing things like this. I could cry thinking about all the kids who are either going to detransition in a few short years, or are going to feel too trapped and afraid to go back, and end up bottling up all their unhappiness. The very thing these parents claim they want to prevent is what you know they'll turn a blind eye to at the finish. Just look at poor Jazz. It breaks my hard to think of all the kids caught in the middle of this.

a safe family home and a supportive school environment – regardless of what gendered adult outcome other people are hoping for

Sounds great until it becomes clear from the article that parents who don't agree with transition are "endangering" their child.

Sounds great until it becomes clear the adult author is hugely invested in a specific outcome.

You can see the hypocrisy from space.

I've mentioned before on here about a performative mum I know of who seems to revel in her trans child. Never mentioned her daughter on social media, but is now boring everyone about her trans "son". She was even annoyed when her child didn't celebrate trans day of visibility, so she did it for them. It all seems to be about point scoring with her woke friends.

I'm glad I was just allowed to be a tomboy - frequently mistaken for a boy when young, into making dens, outdoorsy things, bikes, hated dolls and pink things.

And here is another aspect of this aggressive agenda.

Oops sorry, wrong thread! 🙄