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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Today's Guardian - the trans kids helped by a pioneering project

124 replies

pachyderm · 15/06/2020 08:27

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/15/trans-transgender-children-gender-family-project

Children of seven and twelve years old, just heartbreaking.

I would get banned for saying what I want to say about the writer of this piece.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 15/06/2020 09:26

@Gncq

OldCrone

I'm not sure it's always solely because of the mothers. Eg in the cases of Jackie Green and Paris Lees they were both little boys who liked playing with girly toys. They both had their favourite toys thrown away by their father. This seems to be quite a common story in MTFs, that "transing" was their way out of awful homophobic bullying on part of the father.
The mums, well, one of them went on to set up Mermaids so it was obviously important to her.

I haven't watched "I am Jazz" but do understand that poor child is simply exploited by every adult around them, not just Jazz's mum.

Homophobic fathers definitely have a part in this, but in all the stories in this article, as well as almost every other case of a child transitioning as a child, it's the mother who seems to be driving it. Susie Green's husband may have been homophobic, but it was Susie who took her child to the USA and Thailand for treatment.

There was also that case where a woman was transing her child and her estranged husband took her to court (might have been the case in which the mother was banned from having any contact with Mermaids).

I have yet to see a case where the father is enthusiastically transing his child while the mother tries to stop him.

Serendipity79 · 15/06/2020 09:28

A few years ago my friend told me about another mum in school who'd taken her daughter (year 5 so must have been about 8/9?) to a clinic in London to have her "assessed" because she was fanatical about sports and would only wear football kits. She was adamant her daughter had been born a girl but was destined to be a boy. I don't pretend to have much understanding of these situations at all but I really struggle with the idea that children that young are potentially "persuaded" that they don't have the right body. :(

Last week my 6 year old son was determined one day that he was a dinosaur and the other day he was Elsa from Frozen....

LetsSplashMummy · 15/06/2020 09:30

I know a four year old being pushed by the father. He's the SAHP, so the social benefits of being seen as a cool and compassionate dad are the driving force.

I know this is unusual, but so are male SAHPs really. Perhaps when being a parent is a huge part of your identity, you are more likely to prove the kind of parent you are?

Soubriquet · 15/06/2020 09:31

Those poor kids

Why on earth would you allow them to go through this and then put them on hormones effectively freezing them growing up.

Disgusting

SarahTancredi · 15/06/2020 09:33

Especially when puberty is what in the majority of cases , the trigger for them growing out of it. The parents are effectively denying them the cure.

WendyHoused · 15/06/2020 09:40

Christ on a bike, the state of those parents!

UncleShady · 15/06/2020 09:40

A few years ago my friend told me about another mum in school who'd taken her daughter (year 5 so must have been about 8/9?) to a clinic in London to have her "assessed" because she was fanatical about sports and would only wear football kits

That kind of obsession seems like an autistic trait (we had rocks and dinosaurs instead of football) - are we at the point where people would 'prefer' a trans child than an autistic, gay one?

Angryresister · 15/06/2020 09:41

Expect more articles in the Guardian as they are now the only rag prepared to ignore what the rest of us know...that this is seriously harming our children. All part of the cult.

toinfinityandlockdown · 15/06/2020 09:46

This is so upsetting. My children have all been interested in colours, clothes, games stereotypically of the opposite sex at different times. I just cannot understand why we’re codifying stereotypes and medicalising gender stereotype nonconformity rather than acknowledging the (mostly) binary nature of sex and letting everyone get on with expressing themselves how they want. It seems the exact opposite of progressive.

Lottapianos · 15/06/2020 09:47

'When Seph was three, she told me, he walked into the living room with an armful of dresses and dumped them on the floor. “I won’t be needing these because I’m a boy,”'

I just flat out do not believe stuff like this. The only place this happens is in a parent's head. Does that sound like a 3 year old that any of us have met, ever?

Re the football obsessed girl, I knew a couple who had a 5 year old daughter like this. Obsessed with football,refused to take off her football kit, and said she wanted to be a boy. So, because they're not insane, they showed her loads of YouTube clips of women's football teams, and watched some women's football matches with her. Unsurprisingly, all talk of wanting to be a boy stopped after that. Who'd have thought?!

Justhadathought · 15/06/2020 09:50

I note the reference to hormone therapy as if a young person or child taking hormones is the healthiest, most a natural thing in the world.

Therapy for a disorder

A disorder could be defined as a set of problems, which result in causing significant difficulty, distress, impairment and/or suffering in a person's daily life

If someone has a psychological disorder, try first of all to get to the root of what it is that is causing the distress. What are the expectations that are causing anxiety; what is the dysphoria really saying.

For children brought up on a diet of Disney, or via heavily gendered girl/boy stuff - as is the norm in many families in the U.S and even in Britain now there can be no surprise.

The strict gendering of childhood has long gone into reverse....certainly from when I was a child, when it was not pink and frilly and Disney princesses.

9 times out of 10 these children are gay.

sleepyhead · 15/06/2020 09:51

What the fuck is this obsession with long hair? And from that, hair length as a gender marker?

I didn't have long hair until I was in my teens because a) it had never occurred to my mum not to cut my hair so I'd never had bunches and plaits as a small girl, and b) I would make such an almighty fuss about having my hair brushed and dried that there was no way she was going to put herself and me through untangling long hair.

I had long hair in my teens mainly because I really hate going to the hairdresser.

But that was the 70s/80s and there was a huge mix in girls' hair length.

Why couldn't Seph and Bryce have their hair cut when they were little if they didn't like having long hair? Why did Seph have armfuls of dresses if they didn't like wearing them? Where are all the tomboys?

And "At the time, Zion went by ‘he’, and so they would just emotionally, socially and physically abuse Zion,” said Natalie. Another time, bullies put her in a headlock and threw her off the top of the jungle gym." - and they honestly see no link between a child who, by their own admission was "emotionally, socially and physically bullied" by their own family and peers, and a child who is told there is a way out - be a girl and you'll fit in, be "correct".

Mumoblue · 15/06/2020 09:52

I understand that dysphoria is a real thing, but 3? 3 is too young.

If your 3 year old says they dont need dresses because they aren't a girl then you talk to them about how dresses are just clothes and girls can wear whatever clothes they want. You shouldn't think: right, time to get down the doctors.

Our society is so much more divided into blue and pink now! This is the opposite of what we were supposed to be achieving.

RoyalCorgi · 15/06/2020 09:56

There is something fundamentally wrong with the Guardian.

For me, this isn't about having a difference of opinion with them. It's not like disagreeing with someone about Brexit, or private healthcare, or the 11+. This stuff is morally wicked. It's equivalent to justifying castrating little boys so they can keep their singing voices, or making a case for adults having sex with children. Effectively the Guardian is endorsing child abuse but presenting it as if it is normal and acceptable.

Justhadathought · 15/06/2020 09:57

When he was four, Seph began identifying with “Catboy”, the silly male protagonist of the Disney Junior show PJ Masks. By the end of preschool, he’d become more persistent in telling teachers and friends that he was a boy. Lindsay had an idea that Seph might be transgender but didn’t want to say the actual words

The child is starting to form a feeling about themselves that doesn't quite fit what they are being fed on/presented.....and rather than allow it to resolve itself over the ensuing years...it is now given a diagnosis. That diagnosis is 'transgender'

Apollo440 · 15/06/2020 09:59

Some commented on there being no comments on the Guardian article. This has been common for a while. They know they are right and don't want to hear differently.

Soubriquet · 15/06/2020 10:00

Don’t lots of kids like to pretend they are a character though?!

Ds said he was Blue from Jurassic world.

Let’s ignore the fact that Blue is female, not once did I rush out to source dino therapy and I didn’t start feeding him raw meat and keep him locked up behind bars (though this was a very hard one to resist Grin)

NotBadConsidering · 15/06/2020 10:00

Let’s look at the article more closely:

The question took me aback – it was so clear in that moment Seph understood he was being watched and examined because he is different, because he is transgender

Really? It took you abackHmm? You don’t think the child’s parent told them beforehand they were going to be interviewed by someone masquerading as a journalist about being transgender? Ok.

On one side of the debate are people who think Seph’s gender dysphoria will fade by adulthood

By “one side of the debate” you mean the evidence.

On the other are the vast majority of mental health professionals who study gender dysphoria insisting that affirming a child in whatever way they express their gender is beneficial to their mental health

Firstly, these aren’t two sides of the same debate. It’s possible to believe the first part and believe the second part. What is definitely not settled, is medical treatment as part of affirmation.

When Seph was three, she told me, he walked into the living room with an armful of dresses and dumped them on the floor. “I won’t be needing these because I’m a boy,” Lindsay, a talkative woman in her mid-30s, said

I know lots of 3 year olds. I have had four of them myself who are quite precocious. I assess the development of children this age for a living. They just do not talk like this. It may be a paraphrase, but there is no way this actually happened verbatim and as has been mentioned before, this is a frequent feature of such articles.

Lindsay had an idea that Seph might be transgender but didn’t want to say the actual words. “I felt like if I put a name to it, it would make it real.” So she kept Seph’s hair long and didn’t raise the issue at school. It was a call from Seph’s dad that finally woke her up. “He told me that Seph had said, ‘I wish I was never born because no one gets me,’” recalled Lindsey. “No one should feel that way at age five.” Soon after her realization, a friend connected her to GFP

This is the Sliding Doors moment. Whereas parents all over the world recognise that children can have ideas about things aged 3-5 that can be fleeting or persistent, the child is now in a place that will make sure it is persistent. The opportunity to just parent it, manage ideas and let things grow has now gone.

But when his mom stepped away briefly and I told him that I was like him, that people had thought I was a boy but I was really a girl on the inside, his eyes grew wide. “You’re like the opposite of me!” he exclaimed, his body visibly relaxing

Well, that’s not remotely creepy: a strange adult waiting till the parent isn’t around to talk to the child about something so personal...there’s a word, but I can’t write it or this post will be pulled.

But increasingly, researchers have begun to realize that how a child’s gender dysphoria evolves over time is less important than curtailing potential trauma caused by hostile family environments.

How the hell is it less important? Children can be supported without ignoring the natural history of their condition. To ignore the natural history of how a child’s gender dysphoria evolves is utterly negligent, because it means they are put on a medical pathway without thinking. It’s just as important to help with trauma. And no mention at all of how trauma is a common preceding trait to gender identity issues in children.

they are less interested in whether dysphoria will persist into adulthood, and more focused on creating healthy support systems for kids now, for them to explore their gender identities at their own pace

This is great! And exactly what should happen and what I can get on board with, until:

and support them through the grieving process for the future they may have had in mind for their child

I want to know more about this. Does this mean they help parents come to terms with their child being possibly gay? Or do they help them come to terms with the fact it’s inevitable they will change genders?

“We first started by cutting off like the sides. We did it little by little and then eventually we just chopped it all off and now he had short hair,” said Emma. “I almost wanted to cry because the look on his face was like that of liberation. It was completely priceless.”

Female child gets pixie hair cut shocker.

They went through the intake procedure, part of which is a two-and-a-half-hour interview going over the mental health history of the family and causes of familial stress as well as detailed information about the child’s gender development

It sounds actually good and sensible in what they do.

it started with him not approving of the feminine way Zion expressed herself and blaming Zion’s mother, Natalie, for forcing “gender stuff” on their child.

This bit about Zion, I suspect there’s some latent community homophobia ideas being perpetuated but I would like to hear more about Natalie and “pushing”. Horrible the child was bullied in a homophobic way though.

Natalie considers herself lucky to have gotten Zion into a different school in Brooklyn and also connected with the GFP through a guidance counselor there.

Is this the one featured in Magdalen Burns’ video of Caitlin Jenner?

When issues pop up for trans kids at New York City schools, the GFP has a training department that can advise and teach school personnel how to better deal with bullying and trans inclusivity

Great they support the kid, but I’ll wager a good amount they don’t take into account the impact on other students - girls - when it comes to single sex spaces, as evidenced by

After Bryce transferred to a new school, the GFP provided training and resources to school staff, ensuring that he would be able to use the boys’ bathroom without issue

I bet they help males get into female spaces too.

Now that Bryce has been on testosterone therapy, the source of his now deep voice, for about 10 months

For clarity, this natal female will not be able to reverse this deepening of their voice. At the age of 14.

Lindsay told me that she purposely builds a bubble around Seph. She worries how he’s going to react when he realizes that there are so many people in the world who either hate him or wish he doesn’t exist

No one hates him or wishes he didn’t exist. There are just people who want children to know the realities of what this process means.

”I think I would see an unhappy, suicidal child,” she said. It’s a sentiment echoed by each of the parents I spoke with for this story.

Always with the suicide myth 🙄, and it should also be noted, no adherence to reporting on suicide with links to support services. Standard Guardian shoddiness then.

I asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up, and he said, “You first.” I told him I had wanted to be a writer when I grew up, which turned out to come true

Well that’s debatable.

“If you don’t know what you want to be, you have to marry a rich husband,” he joked.

FFS

I smile at the retort. He shouldn’t have to aspire to change the world. He already has.

🤮

I mean generally this organisation could sound like a real good an important one, that supports families and does family therapy, but there’s still too much of a “you’re on this pathway now” theme that I just can’t get on board.

SarahTancredi · 15/06/2020 10:01

It seems the exact opposite of progressive

I wonder how much this current disposable culture has contributed. Most of us probably grew up with many a hand me down clothing item and you shared toys with your brother or sister. Refusing to wear a perfectly good coat you were given cos your cousin grew out of it, well your have got a clip round there ear and told to freeze then. Clothes had to be sensible and practical and quality. No primark to go buy a 3 pack of pink sparkly vests.

And yes you had to wear a pretty dress to aunty Brenda's birthday dinner but you sucked it up and changed when you got home.

If your neighbour bought you a doll for helping to feed their cats when they went on holiday you were polite and said thank you. And of you didnt want it then it just ended up naked and headless in the toy box.

Gender was pushed in other ways like school uniforms and pe etc but that used to be something that you could debate and talk about. You were able to put together coherent arguments. Crying that no one believed you existed would not have cut it.

No one likes to see their kids upset and yes saying no is hard sometimes and the truth can hurt yes. But that doesnt mean its wrong. Its actually a valuable lesson that ultimately you need to be able to be comfortable within yourself because you cannot control the reaction of others. You cant control the outside world. And it doesnt hurt anyone to have to put themselves out fir others occasionally. It doesnt change who you are. Because you are you whatever hideous monstrosity your grandma buys you for xmas.

This idea of medicalising opinions and personalities is bonkers

OldCrone · 15/06/2020 10:03

Re the football obsessed girl, I knew a couple who had a 5 year old daughter like this. Obsessed with football,refused to take off her football kit, and said she wanted to be a boy.

There was a male trans child in the US who 'knew' he was 'really a girl' because he was obsessed with soccer.

But it's nothing to do with stereotypes.

Justhadathought · 15/06/2020 10:05

I felt like if I put a name to it, it would make it real.” So she kept Seph’s hair long

Why does she have to have long hair?

Have to say that my granddaughter, age 5 , has for a year or so being examining and experimenting with girly gendered stuff; forming close relationships with other girls and so on. All of the girls in her class have long hair. Every single one of them. It is the mothers who do enforce this.

Out of the blue she decided she wanted her hair short...so my daughter took her to hairdressers where the woman assigned the job freaked out, as she had never cut a girl's hair into a short style before, so the 'boss' took over. It looked great, and really suited her personality; in fact brought out her active, adventurous self even more. She likes climbing and ball games and is very competitive.

she's decided to grow it longer again now......which is to my mind a shame, but i'm glad she had the courage and confidence to experiment in the firts place against the flow of social expectation.

Lottapianos · 15/06/2020 10:06

'Don’t lots of kids like to pretend they are a character though?!'

Absolutely. Role play is a perfectly normal and important part of development. Parents with their heads screwed on either shrug and ignore it, or join in with the play but still manage to hold on to what is actually reality and not get carried away

Shedbuilder · 15/06/2020 10:10

I was a horse when I was little and then a cowboy with a horse. My mum did worry about it but the doctor said imagination was a good thing.

I've been trying to work out which department at the Guardian published that article so that I could send an email of complaint. This is the promotion of child abuse. It's that simple.

Justhadathought · 15/06/2020 10:10

Both Bryce and his mother, Emma Stovall, remember a day when he was about six and first vocalized that he was trans. They were watching a Dr Phil show about trans people and after the show, Bryce turned to his mom and told her he was actually a boy

If the culture and the diet is feeding certain interpretations then that is what a child will look to. The parent was watching a programme, with a six year old, about transgenderism.

Justhadathought · 15/06/2020 10:14

Don’t lots of kids like to pretend they are a character though?

Sorry to keep going on about Disney......but if you are being brought up on a series of heavily gendered characters this is where the child's imagination will go. i don't care if Elsa ( Frozen) is strong and independent, she speaks in a hyper feminine voice and has to wear princess dresses.