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Scottish Government redefines "woman" in law.

(163 Posts)
ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 05-Jun-20 08:28:59

www.gov.scot/publications/gender-representation-public-boards-scotland-act-2018-statutory-guidance/pages/2/

2.12 Section 2 of the Act provides that for the purposes of the Act, "woman" includes "a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010[2]) if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female".

2.13 To be included, a trans woman without a UK Gender Recognition Certificate or without gender recognition from another EU Member State[3] must therefore meet the 3 following criteria:

1. have the characteristic of gender reassignment as defined in the Equality Act 2010.

The definition of gender reassignment in the Equality Act 2010 is – "a person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex". This definition includes those reassigning their sex from male to female as well as those reassigning their sex from female to male. A person who meets this definition is not covered by the definition of "woman" in the Act unless they also meet the following two criteria. The person does not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery[4]

2. be proposing to undergo, is undergoing or undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning their sex to female

This element of the definition means that a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is only covered if they are proposing to undergo, is undergoing or have undergone a process to reassign their sex to female. A person reassigning their sex from female to male would not be included in the definition of woman for the purposes of the Act.

3. be living as a woman

This would not require the person to dress, look or behave in any particular way. However, it would be expected that there would be evidence that the person was continuously living as a woman, such as – always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; using female titles; updating the gender marker to female on official documents such as a driving licence or passport; describing themselves and being described by others in written or other communication as a woman.

OP’s posts: |
OhHolyJesus Fri 05-Jun-20 08:36:19

Fuck.

Too late to challenge?

If not then Scotland is lost.

NeedToKnow101 Fri 05-Jun-20 08:37:10

Oh my god.

Lordfrontpaw Fri 05-Jun-20 08:38:45

Just zipping you work (well my desk and phone) - so didn’t read the fill OP - did you include the bit where you aren’t actually allowed to ask in which way a person who says they are a woman is a woman?

MonsteraCheeseplant Fri 05-Jun-20 08:38:51

Holy shit what on earth are they thinking

BaronessRadishFemish Fri 05-Jun-20 08:39:40

Is there a similar load of rubbish regarding women who want people to think they're men?

Has the Scottish government redefined "man" in law too?

Lordfrontpaw Fri 05-Jun-20 08:40:48

BaronessRadishFemish

Is there a similar load of rubbish regarding women who want people to think they're men?

Has the Scottish government redefined "man" in law too?

Don’t be silly...

Blackbear19 Fri 05-Jun-20 08:42:42

Sad sad news, all slipped under the radar. Why aren't the other parties jumping up and down about it?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 05-Jun-20 08:43:57

Lordfrontpaw

Just zipping you work (well my desk and phone) - so didn’t read the fill OP - did you include the bit where you aren’t actually allowed to ask in which way a person who says they are a woman is a woman?

Oops, I missed that bit blush:

2.15 The Act does not require an appointing person to ask a candidate to prove that they meet the definition of woman in the Act.

OP’s posts: |
Alicethroughtheblackmirror Fri 05-Jun-20 08:44:54

This was snuck in as a late amendment to the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act so, at the time, the public had no chance to respond. It was passed a couple of years ago but the act was put out to consultation last year. Scot Gov sat on releasing the results, which should have been ready last Oct (probably to avoid affecting consultation of GRA!), and released them recently. The Gov wanted to consult on wider implications of the act, but the overwhelming response was on this definition of woman. Despite that, they have ignored all the responses and pushed ahead. Letters to MSMs, ministers, anyone you can think of might help...

It's depressing.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror Fri 05-Jun-20 08:48:37

Excellent thread here from Alan Henness, pointing out all the nonsense.
twitter.com/zeno001/status/1268608224799817728?s=20

Also FWS wrote to the minister asking if it was legal to undermine EqA like this. Naturally, she hasn't replied.
forwomen.scot/blog/

KaronAVyrus Fri 05-Jun-20 08:50:14

The snp are an utter disgrace.

Lordfrontpaw Fri 05-Jun-20 08:53:53

European court of human rights? If they take up cases of girls arguing for the right to wear trousers to school then this is a bloody no-brained surely.

BaronessRadishFemish Fri 05-Jun-20 08:58:50

Don’t be silly..

I know, I don't know what came over me.

MoltenLasagne Fri 05-Jun-20 08:59:32

So let's summarise:
A woman is any female or
- any male who has thought about under going a process
- which does not have any fixed limitations but definitely does not require surgery
- and who is living as a woman
- which also has no fixed requirements on dress, looks or behaviour but you have to update your driving licence

How does this differ from Self ID?

Aesopfable Fri 05-Jun-20 09:00:35

For government/council consultations to be legal they must take place at a formative stage (ie before decisions have been finalised) and the results must be considered (though not necessarily followed).

I wander if a judicial review of either this consultation or the GRA one on that basis. Particularly thinking of comments made during the GRA consultation by the likes of Nicola Sturgeon about educating people...

Aesopfable Fri 05-Jun-20 09:06:50

So let's summarise:
A woman is any female or
any male but you can’t ask them for anything to back up their statement that they are a woman.

So a public board with 100% men may be considered to have ‘gender equality’

Alicethroughtheblackmirror Fri 05-Jun-20 09:06:56

Aesop, yes, I think there are good grounds for judicial review. It's infuriating that this has to be the way to hold them to account.

Molton it is exactly self ID. Gov claim it won't affect any other legislation, however, it's already being cited as precedent. MBM have pointed out that it's being used in Scottish National Investment Bank Bill.

Effectively, it seems to me that Scot Gov are using individual pieces of legislation to undermine the Equality Act and make it unenforceable.

Aesopfable Fri 05-Jun-20 09:08:11

Surely the whole Act is in conflict with the Equality Act 2010 as it discriminates against women?

JellySlice Fri 05-Jun-20 09:09:43

Are they proposing to abuse the legal definition of 'man' in the same way? If not, where does that leave transmen?

A person reassigning their sex from female to male would not be included in the definition of woman for the purposes of the Act.

Let me guess... legally stripped of their human rights, damned, like every other female.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror Fri 05-Jun-20 09:10:09

Aesop, quite! The FWS letter asks the minister what legal advice they have received to suggest they can undermine the Act in discrete legislation. Apparently, she's not replied.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 05-Jun-20 09:11:06

Aesopfable

Surely the whole Act is in conflict with the Equality Act 2010 as it discriminates against women?

There has been chat (on twitter) about getting the UK government involved in this.

The issue as well is that now this is in law it is being used to bolster the argument in other areas e.g. the census.

OP’s posts: |
SnuggyBuggy Fri 05-Jun-20 09:11:25

So the term woman becomes meaningless

Alicethroughtheblackmirror Fri 05-Jun-20 09:12:54

Jelly, I think original drafting was in line with EA and would have included transmen but Scottish trans didn't like that!

Aesopfable Fri 05-Jun-20 09:17:57

Is the Scottish Government entitled to change reserved legislation through secondary legislation within the Scottish Parliament? Seems unlikely.

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