I'm going to write a book: 'Why I'm no longer talking to men about feminism'

[TheEighthHorcrux]

I am so, so, so frustrated and tired of explaining why it's important that sex based spaces and conversations about the lived experiences of women is important.

Got into a debate about JK Rowling today with a close friend of mine. I am so very deeply hurt that despite saying that I believe anyone and everyone deserves kindness and love and acceptance, I was scoffed at by them in sharing my lived experience as a woman.

These experiences centred around:

• childbirth
• sexual assault

I really cannot fathom how someone can blithely dismiss the lived experiences of another person and resolutely ignore the fact that they are asking the same for another group of people.

I'm so angry.

Angry for being laughed at by someone I loved when I dared talk about my experiences (why is this ok to do to women but not men and trans folk?), and angry for being made out to be a bigot in what is becoming a tug of war over who is the most oppressed rather than a discussion of how we can work together.

I am past knowing whether I am articulating myself well enough. I am very angry without knowing where to put the anger. I stand with JK Rowling.

Apologies for the title, I'll ask Mumsnet to change it as I don't feel it really illustrates what I intended my thread to be about.

I think that's a good suggestion. As a BAME woman who had been reccomending the book for years for it only now to be getting read, it's frustrating to see people reading it and missing the point. Hopefully you can understand that but appreciate you have realised. And no I'm not be obtuse but don't think there was any need for that insult.

I’ll buy it. And I’ll buy a few more to donate to charity shops to get a few more in circulation.

You should. White men will be the allies of black men (now) but they will NOT be the allies of women.

I think the black lives matter movement has a ''coolness'' about it that women's Aid does not have. I swear to God in the ten years I've been on facebook sharing information about underfunded refuges and childcare issues squeezing women out of workplace and making them vulnerable and financially dependent, pay gap issues, greater expectations on women and at a younger age, domestic abuse atrocities, men do not ''like'' they do not ''share'' and I am left witnessing the fact that they do not care.

I do not post relentlessly. I post jokes, I post netflix recommendations. So I'm not like a dog with one bone on facebook. But I have ten years of observation under my belt. Men do not care.

@GreytExpectations

I apologise. I am willing to grow and learn and understand that the use of the title is a misstep. I have asked Mumsnet to change it.

I am still baffled and heartbroken and saddened by the reaction. And today I literally can't stop thinking about it.

This is why men laugh at women when we talk, to produce this reaction. Men hate being laughed at, it can provoke a violent response from them - but they frequently do it to women. Its a form of negging.
www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/negging

@IM0GEN

2/10 for the derailing attempt BTW

Guess it works both ways, at least now you know how it feels. Threads on BLM are always getting derailed on Mumsnet by other issues. However, it's hardly derailing when the title of the thread is a play on the title of a very popular book about that support BLM...

I think the title is a poor choice in itself, but took the OP to mean something like WINLTTWPAR.
In my first reply I nearly said something along the lines of running the idea past Reni Eddo-Lodge, but just by the tone of the OP, I thought it was not something she was seriously considering. More that she was frustrated and throwing the idea out.
I'm somebody who tends to read between the lines though, and I've learnt from my time on MN that many people take things much more literally.

I really cannot fathom how someone can blithely dismiss the lived experiences of another person and resolutely ignore the fact that they are asking the same for another group of people.

It really is frustrating, infuriating and depressing.

It's because men can empathise with transwomen. They think "imagine how difficult my life would be if I started wearing dresses and make up and going by a female name". But they struggle to empathise with what it's like to be sexually harassed or objectified. In fact many men feel jealous of women - they think "imagine how amazing it would be to have all these men lusting after you".

YY. That's so true.

We tell ourselves that the men in our lives ( friends, partners, relatives ) don’t get it because they don’t know or understand what we have gone through.

But then when we tell them, we discover that it’s not that they don’t know. It’s that they don’t care.

That’s what really hurts.

I wish we could upvote comments.

@Teatowel1

Yes, lesson learnt there.

I have asked Mumsnet to change the title of the thread and I acknowledge it was most likely too flippant a title.

You've hit the nail on the head with my intentions. I too read between the lines but concede that the nuances you may have face to face aren't always present in the online sphere.

The problem is men will never read it.

but they will NOT be the allies of women.

That's a massive generalisation, I know plenty of men who are alies of women and are very engaged with women's rights, I've had really meaningful conversations with them about the issues and made suggestions to reading materials ect. Think a lot of it depends on the men in your life. Of course there are men who still need to be educated, just as there are white people who also need to be educated on BLM and sadly mainly women who feel that their own issues are being out aside. It's very much similar to when men chime in with "what about international men's day". Both need addressing and actioning and we need to find away of doing that by joining forces, not creating divisions. Sadly the later seems to be happening. And I am referring to BAME women issues, which often get ignored in feminism discussions, there is actually an excellent part of WINLTTWPAR where she discusses intersectionality and I wish we could have more conversations on here like that but they just get shut down with "derailing" because white women seem to think BAME women's issues aren't part of the overall women's issues.

@GreytExpectations

What a childish response ! Please do link to / quote where I have derailed a thread on BLM.

In fact, why don’t you report all the times I’ve done that to MN and get me banned?

Or is this one of your “ Someone did a mean thing to me once so now I have a free pass to behave badly towards everyone for the rest of my life “?

Its probably a good idea to get the obligatory NAMALT and Not My Nigel over with early in the thread.

but they will NOT be the allies of women.

Nope, standing by this. The % of men who not only get it, but who will publicly let that be known is kind of insignificant.

[quote IM0GEN]@GreytExpectations

What a childish response ! Please do link to / quote where I have derailed a thread on BLM.

In fact, why don’t you report all the times I’ve done that to MN and get me banned?

Or is this one of your “ Someone did a mean thing to me once so now I have a free pass to behave badly towards everyone for the rest of my life “?[/quote]
You really are overreacting, calm down dear.

It's very refreshing on a thread to see posters take on board other poster's viewpoints, and considering them. Good discussion should help people see the point of view of others, yet so often on SM, you just see people vehemently forcing their opinions, and becoming more polarised in their views.
I enjoy being stretched and engaged by other poster's differing opinions in the more intelligent threads, so thank you all, particularly @TheEighthHorcrux and @GreytExpectations.

Please note, I'm not trying to derail at all. I'm trying to bring the two issues together as that's the only way things will get tackled. I'd like to see more white feminists understanding and listening the BAME feminists discuss their issues. Hopefully things can start to change because on a different site I use there is the generic "feminism" board but then there is a "BAME feminism" one which I think makes the issues so much worse.

That’s a great idea @GreytExpectations , why don’t you start your own thread about it rather than derailing the OP s?

@GreytExpectations

I agree.

There are so many different experiences and voices we need to hear. It's important to bring them together and support each voice with the very same zeal and passion we would our own.

@IM0GEN

That’s a great idea *@GreytExpectations* , why don’t you start your own thread about it rather than derailing the OP s?

And thank you, you have just proved the point I'm trying to make. Maybe try reading my other responses and you'll understand. Or do you believe BAME women's issues don't fall under the umbrella of women's issues? How is it derailing to discuss their issues when they are also women on a thread about feminism?

@TheEighthHorcrux definitely and it's great you are so open minded to it! Any feminist book in my opinion should include BAME voices as its a large population of women. Yes women are oppressed and have to deal with sexism every day. But BAME women are oppressed for both their skin colour and their sex, its important to ensure discussions on the subject include them. Dismissing them as derailing is not helpful to anyone and its great to see you and others on this thread are open to the conversation.

@IM0GEN OP seems happy with the points I've raised and is wanting to discuss them. I'm not sure why you seem upset by this?

Where did I say I was upset ? Would that be in the same place that I derailed BAME threads?

Surely @GreytExpectations you are not trying to characterise my different opinion as irrational ? I though you were open to different views.

Telling someone to “ calm down “ is a highly inappropriate response to a black woman raising issues that concern her.

You seem to be the only one claiming I'm derailing the thread. The OP amongst a few others have actually said I raised some good points. Maybe either join in the discussion or stop trying to pick a fight.