DD is gender non conforming

[Rushhomeroad]

DD is 9 and has been gender non conforming since about 3. When I say gender non conforming, I mean she prefers to look like a boy ('male' clothes, short hair, 'male' activities and games). She has been mistaken for a boy all her life and she's not particularly bothered. I've asked if she wants me to correct people but generally she doesn't.
I've never been bothered by what she chooses to wear or play, as long as she's happy, so am I (DH is the same). She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7 and asked if she could become a boy. We talked about it and I explained that there was no magic wand that would give her a penis - the children in the documentaries still had female genitals in their pants. I explained what they would have to go through to become a different sex (surgery, medicine etc). I also told her she was born perfect, and that I loved her just the way she is without needing surgery or medicine to feel accepted. The relief she felt was very obvious - immediate reduction in tears and tantrums, more cuddles and happier child. We're all happy... apart from the increasing number of times she is confronted by strangers. She rarely goes to clubs or classes if she doesn't know anyone, following being cornered by 6 older girls in a girls toilet, telling her she had to leave as she was a boy. She's had similar at holiday clubs. Her swimming lessons had group changing and three families moved class as they didn't want their daughters changing with a boy. So what do I do if society isn't ready to embrace gender non conformity? DD has even used men's public toilets when out with her dad rather than go in the women's alone. So how do we make women's safe spaces safe for girls/women who are non conforming? I even laughed at one parent and asked that if I was trying to pass my son off as a girl, I would have put a lot more effort into it!!
So she doesn't need a third space, she is using facilities intended for her sex, but still isn't safe.
Suggestions?

This is bizarre. What world are we living in now?

I had to wear my brothers clothes growing up as we were dirt poor. My hair was also short as my mum couldn't manage my afro kinks. I also played with "boys" toys and loved climbing trees. It was fully acceptable in the 90's and I embraced my freedom to do as my brothers did.

Rushhomeroad one of our local secondaries is signed up to Stonewall with all the bells and whistles. Suddenly, lots of 'trans kids' and children from a local primary who are 'trans' are being advised to go there as they'll be 'so supportive'.

Nightmare, and also incredibly difficult to have any say over as a parent. The problem with truthisarevlutionaryact's suggestion - excellent as it is - is that there's a strong chance that that will be construed by the school as you trying to censor her trans-ness.

I think the best approach is continue with exactly what you've been doing and really bolster your dd's self-esteem and confidence to be who she is.

Pretty much the only advantage of these Stonewall schools is that they're usually pretty sensitive to make uniform as non-gendered as possible eg girls wear short and jogging bottoms for pe not some silly skirt.

She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7

7 is very young to be watching such programmes on a very complex issue. Were the programs on after the watershed? How did she come to be watching them? It seems like until then she was figuring life out as a happy tomboy.

I was a tomboy as a child, played only with boys' toys, grabbed around in the dirt, never ever owned any dolls and had no interest in anything 'girly'. I lived in tracksuit bottoms, trainers and t shirts.

I grew out of this and began developing an interest in makeup, clothes, all the things you would stereotype as 'girly' when I was about 12 or 13.

Your daughter is still very very very young. She hasn't even began maturing into a woman yet.

I agree with PP, I would not 'encourage' her toward anything in particular and see what she does organically. I think starting her down a particular road or labelling her at this time would not help in any way. With regards to school, I think take it on a case by case basis. Tackle each issue as they crop up to find a comfortable solution, such as the swimwear, but don't use buzzwords or attach it to any kind of specific identity.

A children’s programme about children changing sex... god help us.

@lordfrontpaw

I know. It terrifies me.

Thank Christ my parents were sane. My sister would have definitely been ripe for these loons. Absolute tomboy, used a boys name where she could, short hair, always ‘boys’ clothes and toys... I suspect she could have been persuaded. Thank god she discovered Martina as a child (she is tennis mad) and had a role model.

Also my parents were cool with it - bought her the blue, let her get cropped hair (when she was little), bought her action man... plus mum always had the attitude that women were just ‘better’ (stronger, more resilient, more resourceful) than men.

I saw programme about trans children and all I could think of when they were describing their feelings was that it was all perfectly normal.

Why weren’t their parents telling them it was part of growing up and quite normal to not like having period or boobs sprouting and if a boy wanted to play with dolls and dress up or girls playing with train sets etc it didn’t make them trans, it made them normal.

I just wondered if the parents didn’t want a normal child they wanted their child to be different

Were the programs on after the watershed? How did she come to be watching them?

‘Trans kids’ are all over CBBC. Most often natal girls but natal boys too.

This aired pretty much around the time that the spike in girls referred to GIDS (The NHS paediatric gender identity service) began (2014).

As a child I was considered a tomboy (as it was called back then) no one mistook me for an actual boy and if they did I never heard about it, even boys knew I wasnt an actual boy. It was very normal to just leave children to be children.

I'm 62 and this was very much true of me as a child and until I was 14. I had short hair until then (but short hair was extremely common for girls in those days - nobody cared how long your hair was), played and followed football like it was my religion and was often referred to as a 'tomboy', which was not considered anything other than a thing that some girls were.

I had long hair from 14-22, then had it cut in a trendy short style and it has remained thus ever since. I've been mostly gnc clothes-wise, but wear what the hell I like, when I like - for example, professionally I used to wear skirt suits from late 30s to late 40s when most other women wore trouser suits.

It's entirely bizarre and infuriating how adults have contrived to force children and young people into making a choice about 'gender roles' that are utterly *unnecessary - and have led to the appalling situation described by the OP and even worse, where children are set on a lifetime of life-changing drugs and medication.

It's shameful.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I literally have no words.

What is gender? Is it our pronouns? Or are they there to describe our sex? Probably this is the crux of the issue for many.

Your daughter is a girl, but she has no gender, because gender is just an unhealthy, self limiting construct.

Teach her to focus more on whether the clothes she chooses are suited for the task at hand. Teach her that what she does in this world (right/wrong, ambitious/idle, improving one's abilities and enjoying activities) matters more than how she looks, to herself, but especially others. Teach her to not care how others see her.

Personally, I would always call her she and her. Because her sex is female.

My 12 yr old daughter wears boys clothes only, does not wear a bra and has a short haircut. The general public believes she is a boy and refers to her as such. We have asked if she would like us to correct them when they call her boy. She declined. She refers to herself as a girl.

We just let her be. She is home educated. No problems with bullying or anyone trying to influence to be something she is not.

I don’t know what the future hold for her. I always want her to feel love and support from her family unconditionally. We have been very clear with interested parties that she alone will make decisions about her future choices.

The hair thing is curious. It's hugely loaded as a symbol of feminity.

As a child I was very uncomfortable with perceived tropes of girlyness. I insisted on having short hair and comfortable clothes. I wore (and still do) mostly trousers and t-shirts. I frequently got mistaken for being a boy, which actually really annoyed me, because I wasn't a boy.
One of my cousin's was very similar, except she wanted to be a boy, used a boy's name (we all called her by this name) but kept her hair long.
I'm now middle aged, married to a man and a parent. My cousin is definitely female and I suspect quietly gay. We're not close and I haven't seen her in a long time.
I really don't think it's unusual for children to reject gender stereotypes as they grow up and work out who they are. In the 1970's it wasn't remarkable to me.
It's very unusual to see girls these days with short hair. Medium to long seems to be the default and this in itself is making short hair seem more like a statement around gender.

My 11 year old daughter has worn only boys clothes since she was 3. She wears the boys school uniform and lives in t-shirts, shorts and hoodies outside school. At weddings and formal events she'll wear a suit or t-shirt with a waistcoat and trousers. She has short hair and no interest in getting her ear pierced or wearing makeup or perfume. She wears shirts and rash T-shirt when she goes swimming.
Her school, family and friends have never taken a blind bit of notice. She is just accepted for who she is. She is a girl who likes to wear boys clothes. She finds them more comfortable and practical. She thinks children transitioning is a nonsense. She isn't gay. She just wears what she likes to wear and enjoys gaming, Warhammer and scouts.
I'm fascinated at how confident she is but am worried about her starting at secondary school as I know she'll be challenged by the children who don't know her.
How ridiculous it all is... they are just clothes!

we need to stop labeling.
what's gender non conforming?
just normal.
pp are all different.

I would call all of this bullying and nothing else. What have we come too ?

Her swimming lessons had group changing and three families moved class as they didn't want their daughters changing with a boy

Would the children have seen each other naked? When I was forced to go to swimming as part of PE the girls used the changing cubicles or changed under a towel. We didn't see each other naked.

Is there an AIBU somewhere asking-

Am I justified in taking my 9 year old daughter out of a swimming class which allows a boy in the changing room? The mother says the child is a girl but he isn't

It's reassuring to hear all the people saying that when they were growing up being a tomboy was considered normal - I am what's considered an older mum, I had no issues with what DD wanted to do or wear growing up as that was how it was when I grew up. She's happy and sociable, with lots of friends of both sexes. I was similar, as was my mum, and we've continued to go for comfort and practicality since.
Its also reassuring how many other people are in this situation as most 'friends' that have brought the subject up consider transition the reasonable option (which obviously I don't).
As I said, her current school is excellent and have proactively supported her choices, no pressure to talk unless she wants to.
When we discuss it (less often recently) she just says she wishes there weren't rules that people believe you should follow on clothes, hair, activities etc. I reassure her that she has every right to be who she wants to be. If asked, she tells people she is a girl, and laughs at children who ask her what she is, and wins them with her personality. Her move to a much larger school is concerning as she has been bullied by children who didn't know her, and as she gets older she'll have to deal with these things more and more independently.

@DidoLamenting

Her swimming lessons had group changing and three families moved class as they didn't want their daughters changing with a boy

Would the children have seen each other naked? When I was forced to go to swimming as part of PE the girls used the changing cubicles or changed under a towel. We didn't see each other naked.

Is there an AIBU somewhere asking-

Am I justified in taking my 9 year old daughter out of a swimming class which allows a boy in the changing room? The mother says the child is a girl but he isn't

Was a girls changing room, parents allowed in too, open plan. DD changed into shorts covering her lap with a towel, otherwise stripped off to change. The other girls were mostly younger and had no problems being nude in front of strange women. Maybe that's the difference?

Her move to a much larger school is concerning as she has been bullied by children who didn't know her, and as she gets older she'll have to deal with these things more and more independently

Somehow you will have to impress a confidence in her, so that other peoples comments just slide right off her.
The knowledge I have at my age means other peoples opinions dont matter and I'm happy to shrug it off. I have no idea how you would do this.

OP are you new to MN or just namechanged? Just that it seems to be extremely normal to have a dd who isn't overtly feminine yet i would have thought unusual for enough people to have commented or been aggressive that you need to ask for ideas for "how do we make women's safe spaces safe for girls/women who are non conforming?"

The doctor story would make me wonder if there is something else going on. Did he think your daughter was presenting as a trans boy? "It" would be an extremely odd way to refer to any person.

Can't you just explain she's a bit of a ton boy 🤔

I mean that's what we used to call girls who didn't conform to feminist ideals, a Tom boy.

DD changed into shorts covering her lap with a towel, otherwise stripped off to change. The other girls were mostly younger and had no problems being nude in front of strange women. Maybe that's the difference?

Possibly. Would she wear one of Speedo girl swimsuits? They have the same coverage as shorts and a vest but the detail on them make them look for girls.

She has my sympathy about not wanting to be naked in front of strangers. I wouldn't use a communal changing room where I had to be naked but possibly her covering up isn't helping.

A few things here don,t make much sense.