DD is gender non conforming

[Rushhomeroad]

DD is 9 and has been gender non conforming since about 3. When I say gender non conforming, I mean she prefers to look like a boy ('male' clothes, short hair, 'male' activities and games). She has been mistaken for a boy all her life and she's not particularly bothered. I've asked if she wants me to correct people but generally she doesn't.
I've never been bothered by what she chooses to wear or play, as long as she's happy, so am I (DH is the same). She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7 and asked if she could become a boy. We talked about it and I explained that there was no magic wand that would give her a penis - the children in the documentaries still had female genitals in their pants. I explained what they would have to go through to become a different sex (surgery, medicine etc). I also told her she was born perfect, and that I loved her just the way she is without needing surgery or medicine to feel accepted. The relief she felt was very obvious - immediate reduction in tears and tantrums, more cuddles and happier child. We're all happy... apart from the increasing number of times she is confronted by strangers. She rarely goes to clubs or classes if she doesn't know anyone, following being cornered by 6 older girls in a girls toilet, telling her she had to leave as she was a boy. She's had similar at holiday clubs. Her swimming lessons had group changing and three families moved class as they didn't want their daughters changing with a boy. So what do I do if society isn't ready to embrace gender non conformity? DD has even used men's public toilets when out with her dad rather than go in the women's alone. So how do we make women's safe spaces safe for girls/women who are non conforming? I even laughed at one parent and asked that if I was trying to pass my son off as a girl, I would have put a lot more effort into it!!
So she doesn't need a third space, she is using facilities intended for her sex, but still isn't safe.
Suggestions?

My now 17YO went through exactly the same and aged 9 was indistinguishable from a boy to most.

She also wore a rash vest for swimming.

I was also told her school would support her transition and explained my position.

She still has short hair, wears lots of boys clothes but she also wears nail varnish and occasionally make-up. She now says she isn't stereotyped by gender and is happy.

We never found a good solution to her entering women's only spaces other than me saying something to her that clearly indicated she was a girl if anyone started to look uncomfortable.

FWIW, I think you're doing exactly the right thing.

"Don't you think a LOT of girls would rather wear something more modest than a traditional girl's bathing suit?"

I'm not clear on your point?

Thanks for the podcast and book recommendations

A lot of girls have very short haircuts. The parents in that changing room are idiots and possibly also unconsciously homophobic.

There are all sorts of girls. When did it become so awful. :'(

I mainly blame the beauty industry. A daughter is not a little barbie doll. She is her own person and all girls are valid. I am an engineer and I was interested in engineering as a child, and I had very short hair as I wouldn't comb/brush it and I hated barbie dolls in toy and real life form. I was a girl and I am a woman.

Rushhomeroad
Some female marker might help. I swam in Speedos as a kid but I had a ponytail. I also wore only boys clothes and played with only boys and only took part in boys activities. Although I cut off all my hair at 13, up until then the hair was enough of a signifier to get strangers off my back.

I know this sounds a bit defeatist. Would she wear earrings maybe? Trying to think of something to placate the masses whilst allowing her to (mostly) be herself..

Things are more gendered now that when I was a child and a friend whose daughter has asked for her hair to be cut off (she allowed it and the girl is delighted) gets the same transy questions too. Incidentally the child is now more comfortable wearing girls clothes now her hair is short.

It's not right to have to do it, I know. I'm so pleased you're standing up for her, and I'm so grateful to my mum for doing the same.

And that doctor sounds like a total wanker.

The best advice I can give you is to let her see adult GNC women in real life. Many of the detransitioners have said that they didn’t really understand that growing up to be a butch woman (lesbian or straight) was any more than a theoretical thing, all the GNC female people they saw on YouTube etc were transboys or identified as non binary. One even said she didn’t think she could actually be a lesbian because she wasn’t attracted to transgirls and ‘transwomen are women’ 😢

It’s not enough just saying that it’s ok to be GNC, they need to actually be around visibly GNC women (just GNC acting isn’t enough).

Hard during the current virus situation I know, but I am going to be arranging a LOT of accidental-bump-into-let’s-pop-for-coffee meetings with happy, successful GNC women with my stepdaughter in tow, as soon as I am able.

Her dad and I are very non conforming aesthetically but in a counter culture way, rather than gender way and that doesn’t seem to exist among the current crop of kids. Anyone who would once have been goth/punk/emo/hippy/grungey/metalhead/mosher seems to swept under the ‘queer’ umbrella in high school 2020.

Our girl has been looking at some of the many detransitioner videos now being published on YouTube and is finding lots in common with the reidentified women and girls, despite never actually making it to proper transition (due to us putting the breaks on hard and arguing it out with the school). Your daughter is still too young for those ideas, but could be worth familiarising yourself with them to be able to anticipate some of the potential challenges ahead.

We never found a good solution to her entering women's only spaces other than me saying something to her that clearly indicated she was a girl if anyone started to look uncomfortable.
Yes there are certain tactics that help.

It’s not enough just saying that it’s ok to be GNC, they need to actually be around visibly GNC women (just GNC acting isn’t enough).

There aren't that many of us in some places though!
(I'm available for weddings funerals and bar mitzvahs)

Thanks for the offer flyingoink!

What sort of things can you say to convince others in public toilets etc? I use her name, but I've even had people say, 'oh, that's an unusual name for a boy!'.

You sound like wonderfully supportive parents. Your DD is very lucky

It makes me so sad that in this day and age, people are still being judged just for being who they are. Especially children!

Your DD trying to live her life as her authentic self and that should be applauded.

As other posters have said - both you and DD should keep doing exactly what you're doing. I admire you both.

There aren't that many of us in some places though!

Believe me, I know! I’ve though about some kind of rent-a-butch ‘auntie’ scheme! Especially as lots of GNC adult women are aware of what’s happening to GNC youth and do want to help if they can.

One of the things that was suggested to me when chatting at the after party of a Make More Noise event was to seek out and employ female-owned and operated trades companies, ie female plumbers, sparks, landscapers etc.
The work tends to attract GNC women and it brings them to your home so that GNC daughters can casually meet them.

Bonus is supporting women-owned companies and feeling safer when tradespeople are in your home.

I haven’t tried it yet because I can do most stuff myself but I am definitely going to keep it in mind next time we hire someone in!

Most of my DDs teenage friends who are GNC have also gone with gender-fluid, non-binary and trans identities (although one of her female friends who says she is trans and uses a Male name has also said she's lesbian). There does almost seem to be an element of play in it all with them picking a different identity when it suits. I'd be fine with all the teens playing with gender if only it didnt impinge onto sex-based rights.

Up until recently I described this phenomenon as sitting under the LGBT Sorting Hat (in that it seems to start when they begin secondary school!) but I don’t suppose I will get away with that phrasing when speaking to the woke lot now!

I used to be like your daughter OP. It was mega awkward going to toilets as people would point me to the boys toilets. I wore the girls uniform at school and girls swimming costume as I saw it as compulsory - so didn’t really question it.

I always knew I was a girl (though at various points I did wish I wasn’t). I went to all girls secondary. I was bullied a little for being a nerd but not a tomboy. I guess I’m glad I didn’t have all the choices that are available now. I still don’t like lots of ‘feminine’ things but I did grow my hair to look more conventional when I was about 14. I have appreciated being a woman more as I got older, married, had kids. Wishing you and your daughter all the best - it is a hard time.

she’s been admitting that school wanting to change her name and gender marker is driven by staff, not her

This makes me so bloody angry. Force feeding this shite to our kids with no option to disagree. Told EVERYONE has a "gender identity" and must pick one.
Do schools now have special Stonewall inclusivity quoters to fill?

One even said she didn’t think she could actually be a lesbian because she wasn’t attracted to transgirls and ‘transwomen are women

If you ever need proof that this is a men's sex rights movement, there it is.
Tell the young lesbians that if they won't have sex with a penis they must be men.
No use to them sexually but great for pushing an gender and boosting numbers.

This sounds like me. Even down to the hair cut and clothes and what I played with.

I don’t understand why you would even try and label your dd.
All she needed to know was it doesn’t matter what you look like or what you are interested in. She is female and that will never change.

As an adult I am still not interested in hair and make up, I don’t own a handbag. I only own one dress and I am more interested in nail guns than nail varnish

I am certainly a woman but the trans community would say I wasn’t

Just because you don’t conform to the list of what someone thinks is feminine or masculine doesn’t mean anything.

Do schools now have special Stonewall inclusivity quoters to fill?

School has a Stonewall Bronze Award and the counsellor is BACP registered:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

They did offer to send some leaflets from Mermaids in the post but after my DH gave the deputy head a right telling off on the phone (including asking if anyone had actually assessed DsD for ‘Gillick Competency’ or if the school was simply using it as a buzzword 😂) said Mermaids materials failed to materialise!

Of course, OPs daughter might well be GNC and straight (she’s only 9, no need to pigeonhole her) but all this stuff has been deliberately mishmashed together by Stonewall and targeted at children so it’s best to get properly informed before it gets to the doorstep. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

I've used gender non conforming in a descriptive sense, rather than to label her. She has no idea about all the different terminology, she is who she is and I just want a way of her doing that without having to conform to a stereotype in some way, to be more acceptable to society. She knows we're all different and that's OK, but she doesn't understand adults confronting her and telling her she can't be somewhere she is perfectly entitled to be. This makes me sad, despite knowing I'm supporting my child to be herself and that is the right thing to do. .

Don't you think a LOT of girls would rather wear something more modest than a traditional girl's bathing suit?"

I'm not clear on your point?

I assume the poster meant girls might prefer a suit which is legged rather than the traditional vulva emphasising style.

Like this. Speedo make it with blue stripes and pink stripes. If anyone knows what a "girls ' swim suit" looks like it must be Speedo. Get her that and tell the school to argue with the world's leading swimwear manufacturer.

www.speedo.com/uk/en/junior-boomstar-legsuit/812396B344.html

It’s not you that’s labelling her, don’t worry. We’re just worried about the labels that others may want to push upon her in future.

Your daughter is a girl who likes having short hair and practical clothes with good coverage and useable pockets! Seems pretty sensible to me.

There are some great legged styles on the Speedo site- all marketed as for girls.

@Rushhomeroad

The school she will be going to is an academy, which is owned by the same company that owns all the other local schools. They all have the same SMT ethos. The only other option is a religious school, which set alarm bells ringing more when I spoke to them than the other options available. For anyone thinking it's hard to confuse a girl for a boy - her own doctor accused me of presenting the wrong child at an appointment. I corrected him and said this is my daughter - he didn't look at her for the rest of the appointment, referred to her as 'he' and after we left, DD said he had referred to her as 'it' at one point (which obviously I didn't hear as I would have kicked off) but a complaint to the practice manager got nowhere.

I dont understand why in present era people like drs are being so stupid. As a child I was considered a tomboy (as it was called back then) no one mistook me for an actual boy and if they did I never heard about it, even boys knew I wasnt an actual boy. It was very normal to just leave children to be children.

I'm pretty sure that if I was the same child now, I would have been transed at around age 6. Which is beyond ridiculous.
Gods sake I hated dolls, i prayed for a chopper bike, i loved my skateboard I was only ever in jeans and boots and I climbed trees like they were my second home yet I like being a woman. Admittedly at a point around puberty I did really question if I was male, but I now believe that's normal in lots of girls.
What a heartbreak if it had been now and I questioned my sex to the wrong person?

I think the description you gave about her being gender nonconforming since the age of 3 might not be in your mind a label but it shows you are thinking in terms of girls only play with/dress like this and boys play with/dress like that.

Ds is 18 and has always looked like a girl. He still gets referred to as a girl even though he is dressed in work trousers and steel toe capped boots.

I can understand the swimming situation as when Ds was younger he used to do football and their were a few parents who muttered about him taking up a boys space on the team. (Even his coach thought he was a girl)

He was once asked in the park by a couple of boys if he was a boy or a girl?
When he said he was a boy they referred to his hair and said their mothers had said only girls had long hair.

He replied that their mothers should get out more. He was 5years old at the time.

I think your dd needs her confidence building than any talk of her changing sex
or not conforming to gender stereotypes.

Not going to clubs because she doesn’t know anyone is a self confidence issue not a gender issue.

She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7 and asked if she could become a boy

I think the simple answer is no. People can’t change sex.
People can call themselves what they want and act out a role but they are still Male or female. That will never change.

I was (and in many ways still am) a tomboy - a word I use to describe myself and have no issue with.
As a young child I would pretend to be a boy and give myself a boy’s name. My parents never stopped it but used my given name as that’s the name they chose. Can’t recall if it bothered me but it’s not left an lasting trauma.

My first school I wore the boys’ uniform and the only situation I can recall when that was an issue was, at the end of term, a teacher found a skirt with my name in it and made me change. My anger was directed at the teacher for making me do something my parents didn’t.
I then went onto a single sex school with tunics and skirts. It wasn’t an issue as that’s what you do. At home, however, back to trousers and shorts.
As a teenager I had short hair (used to get it cut at a barber’s without problems), wear unfeminine clothes and brogues. I was misgendered at times and accepted that I was the anomaly, the non-conformist and these were innocent mistakes.

As an adult I’m happily married with 3 children and lead a stereotypical ’female’ role. Through choice. And discussion with my husband.

I’m a female who’s not feminine. I hated my boobs at first because they were big not because it made me female!

I do wonder if my parents or I would have been under pressure to pigeonhole me as transgender if I was growing up in the current climate. I think that might have fucked me up far more than learning that I could simply be myself.