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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bernadine Evaristo

107 replies

OhamIreally · 11/06/2020 23:49

Just saw this woman on Question Time and thought she was fabulous. Eloquent yet precise, passionate and logical.
Her response about the pulling down of the Bristol statue was spot on.

OP posts:
stumbledin · 30/07/2020 00:13

They say:

The word 'Womxn’ has been used as an inclusive word that recognises non-binary people and trans women. It is consistent with the name of the company, Black Womxn in Theatre

So in other words it is yet another organisation that could have provided support and interaction between women, but has chosen to disregard women's rights and just insert them into random grouping of people who can claim to be non binary or men who say they are women.

Way to go.

That's true respect for Black Women - not.

DonkeySkin · 30/07/2020 03:00

if gender is a social construct anyone can identify as that gender.

This is such a profound mistake that so many feminists make. It must be a trick of language that makes so many women (including some 'gc' feminists) believe something so demonstrably false.

Gender means 'sex roles'. It is socially constructed upon the material reality of sex. It is not separable from sex. Superficial markers of femininity are not the same thing as sex roles, and men do not experience sexism when they adorn themselves with said markers.

This is obvious, glaringly so. It is proven, in many, many contexts all over the world. From the Hijra of Pakistan who have much more freedom and autonomy than Pakistani women and girls, to Lily Madigan getting away with behaviour that would be tolerated in no Labour woman, to underachieving Travis Alabanza being featured alongside black women of actual achievement in Evaristo's 'womxn' issue of the Sunday Times. None of these males are 'treated like women', because no male can be; none of them have ever been subordinated by sexism, though they may of course have suffered as males. The gender 'woman' cannot be transferred to men via lipstick, or hormones, or pronouns, or surgery.

Again, this is obvious, this is proven, this is demonstrable. Why do so many women continue to believe the opposite, in contradiction of the evidence? Is it wishful thinking? Effeminate men are not 'like women', they are not treated like women, they have no special insight into the female experience, and their behaviour in general indicates that they don't empathise with women, at least, no more than other men do.

I am a woman, female, and not remotely feminine.

But I bet you have experienced sexism nonetheless. I bet you are still 'treated like a woman'. Sex-role non-conforming women often suffer the worst sexism (witness the horrific violence inflicted on butch lesbians in parts of the world, and their near-total invisibility in popular culture). The gender 'man' cannot be transferred to women who defy sex roles.

'Gender' (weasel word) is a phenomenon that is inextricable from sex; it is not an independent entity that can be shifted between the sexes according to how femininely or masculinely someone presents. As long as a person's sex is discernible to others, he or she will be treated as their actual sex.

GilderoyLockdown · 30/07/2020 15:11

I haven't read any of her recent stuff, but would recommend Blonde Roots.

AvoidingTheWineAisle · 30/07/2020 15:41

@GilderoyLockdown

I haven't read any of her recent stuff, but would recommend Blonde Roots.
This is why I bought GWO in the first place. Not because it won a prize, but because I loved Blonde Roots and was curious about her other work.
SeaRabbit · 30/07/2020 22:04

I have to say that when i read the review of GWO after it had won the Booker, i got the impression from the (male) reviewers that she had really only won because she was black, which says a huge amount... Then I read it for book group and thought it was superb: I normally don't bother with the Booker prize as I have been disappointed so many times, but I thought it was exceptional.

It took me a while to get into the odd layout, and found it exhausting at first but i got into it and grew to like it. I also thought Shirley the 'boring' teacher was an excellent character she was believable and not a cliché: she felt like she was a real person, warts and all. All the characters felt like they were real people; it wasn't just joining the dots.

Floisme · 30/07/2020 22:51

Shirley was great. She was also the real hero I thought - the one who changed lives.

nauticant · 07/08/2020 21:10

More Genderwang! from Evaristo on A Point of View on Radio 4:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000lh74

It starts well with her stating that gender and sex are distinct but then she gets drawn into the same dead ends that appeal to many:

There are 3 "biological sexes": male, female, and intersex.
NATALT, so we must ignore the Yanivs that the nasty press fixate upon.
The nasty press are presenting this in the same way as "all gays are paedos" and "all blacks are muggers".
We must have a lovely chat rather than have a row. (Paraphrase: women standing up for their rights just isn't kind.)

But then she throws in the grenade of "gender isn't intrinsic". It's very easy to get cancelled with loose talk like that.

My overall impression is that she thinks very very highly of her own intelligence and wisdom. It might be better for her to rely less on her effortless mastery of the subject and actually get to understand more of what she's pointificating on.

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