Bernadine Evaristo

[OhamIreally]

Just saw this woman on Question Time and thought she was fabulous. Eloquent yet precise, passionate and logical.
Her response about the pulling down of the Bristol statue was spot on.

Just an aside: In all honesty, I’d never heard or seen ‘womxn ’ and I think it’s bloody awful! Autocorrect agrees - it took me four attempts to get it to accept this nonsensical ‘word’

[quote MsSafina]@GingerMcKenna
There are others who are resisting though like Lionel Shriver. I expect we will see walk outs by publishing staff as we've seen in the case of JKR.[/quote]
Yes, Lionel Shriver isn't shy about saying what she - or more accurately, her characters - think of woke culture in her latest novel.

@Binterested

I did actually think when Inread GWO that she might be sceptical of the TRA agenda. There’s a transwoman character who is not very sympathetic and who appears to be trying on personalities.

But I think since then BE has picked a side. Which is fine but I don’t agree. Most people don’t. But if you live in a world where everyone has made a career out of this agenda you won’t necessarily know that or care.

I did think BE was gender critical when I read it too - Morgan identifies as Gender Free, and says she finds the trans moment crazy, Dominique thinks Biology is what makes a women.

For me just the fact that it features a large number of black lesbian characters suggests to me that its written from a pro-gc point of view.

I’m a blank woman and find her stance appalling.

And I like to read widely, including novels by people who’s politics I don’t agree with. I’m not going to boycott her because her novels don’t exactly reflect what I think.

I read widely too, including books by an awful lot of people whose views I really disagree with. Hell, I even read a book of short stories by Rod Liddle once. Crazy, I know. (On the plus side, I think I got it from the library so he didn't receive any royalties.)

For me, being prepared to destroy women's sex-based rights goes beyond having an opinion I disagree with. It's profoundly morally wrong. I cannot bring myself to give money to someone who is prepared to collude in harming women and girls just for woke points (which is why I assume she does it).

I'm not "cancelling" her by saying I won't read it. I really, really hated the style of the sample I read, and it seems to be a collection of short stories all connected, which is another kind of novel I don't enjoy. I download lots of book samples and if I'm not drawn in I just don't read them ... that's why they are samples.

That is not cancel culture by any means. There are a lot of Booker prize books I haven't read, including the one by that Jamaican writer -- again for similar reasons. I read a LOT and I have so many unread books I'm not going to read someone just because she's black, the first black Booker prize winner, etc.

Her being "woke" is just one more reason not to, but that still isn't cancelling her!!! The book is out there, winning accolades, has good sales... where is this cancellation?

Reading is subjective and there are just too many books, too little time; I don't need to be told of.

On the whole I don't much like what passes as literary fiction these days.

.I cannot bring myself to give money to someone who is prepared to collude in harming women and girls just for woke points (which is why I assume she does it).

This is also not cancel culture. If anything it should compared to not giving money to M&S and Always - even if the book does not actively promote trans ideology.
One day she'll have to say the mantra...

‘Yes, Lionel Shriver isn't shy about saying what she - or more accurately, her characters - think of woke culture in her latest novel.‘

Ooh. I’ve not read that one yet, but I generally love her books (though not so much her personality tbh). Will be adding to my large to-be-read pile.

I hear what you’re saying @Lamahaha and @RoyalCorgi.

Im still figuring out where my personal line is with writers and artists who are not gender critical.

It is worrying that so little critical thinking on this issue seems to be going in literary circles. The unquestioning acceptance of all this identity bollocks is strong....

That's why my preference is for historical fiction!
Back during ww2 no soldier was agonising about his gender identity, no girl living through the Blitz wondered if she was really a man!
Oh for the days when we didn't have this to contend with...! Good fiction takes me there, whereas lots of contemporary fiction just hurts my head.

It is possible to include Transwomen in certain gendered contexts without agreeing to the dissolution of women's protected sex-based rights.

If the writing and publishing field , for example, discriminates against feminine gendered people, then why wouldn't those people with a common cause stand in solidarity? Whilst still agreeing that Transwomen in a refuge or a prison, for example, is a different matter?

In a field where black people were found to be under represented, a group of black women put together a photo of them all at the Globe, to make themselves visible. They defined the group as 'womxn' ...presumably there were some Transwomen amongst them, presumably they found femininity, rather than sex, to be a cause of discrimination or lack of representation.

Guess who turned on the campaign and filled their Twitter feed with abuse?

Clue: it wasn't racists.

People do have nuanced beliefs. It's real life. People agree, partially agree, agree with qualifications, agree depending on context..or disagree but still respect and listen to another's pov.

Back during ww2 no soldier was agonising about his gender identity, no girl living through the Blitz wondered if she was really a man

I doubt that is true. In fact the briefest of Googles shows it is not.

Of course, not in the forefront of anyone's mind as the bombs are raining down.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45937939/meet-the-99-year-old-transgender-ww2-veteran

An American soldier here who seemed to use signing up as a cover to change gender en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_personnel_in_the_United_States_military

nypost.com/2017/03/29/transgender-wwii-veteran-comes-out-as-a-woman-at-90/

remembermeproject.files.wordpress.com/2018/06/who-were-they-report-final.pdf

And Vietnam : progressive.org/op-eds/memorial-day-is-complicated-for-a-transgender-vet-monifa-190520/

The point is that when you are in a life threatening situation the last thing you'd worry about is your gender identity, and whether it was being validated by others.

It is possible to include Transwomen in certain gendered contexts without agreeing to the dissolution of women's protected sex-based rights.

That was sort of what was going on in general up to a few years ago. At that point the trans activists arrived with their insane demands and have been aggressively attacking women ever since. Frequently showing a hatred of women that is really astonishing.

What the gender critical side learned from this if you give an inch they take a mile.

a group of black women put together a photo of them all at the Globe, to make themselves visible ... Guess who turned on the campaign and filled their Twitter feed with abuse?

Out of interest, do you have any links to this abuse?

Nauticant - yes, that is true in terms of TRAs.

But many of us live and work alongside Trans people (of both sexes / genders) who are also nuanced etc. Plenty of Trans people agree that Women's sport is no place for people who have been through male puberty. Plenty of Transwomen are happy with Transwomen are Transwomen. It's sort of how people live their lives, before the misogynist TRAs got going.

If a 200-strong group of strong black women decide that they can defend their sex based rights as well as include feminine gendered people in their campaign I am not going to attack them on Twitter.

In some contexts - defending sex-based rights under law - I can see the need for an absolute position. But I don't think our responses and decisions in a range of other contexts should be dictated by TRAs.

So where is this abuse that filled the twitter feed?

Nauticant - I did at the time, and I saw some, but they deleted what they could. What I saw did not threaten violence or the equivalent of 'suck my dick' but it was insulting and rude and aggressive.

The comment about her being at Goldsmith explains a lot. (Many threads on here are the damaging education at Goldsmiths)

Just because someone from a minority background (or working class background) wins a "prestigious" prize that is part of the white, racist, male heritage doesn't make they a culture warrior it more likely means they are "acceptable". Beware the women that men choose! That's why media feminism is so poisonous for women's activists.

But why I couldn't bear to read what she had written was the awful look at how liberated I am stuff about being a lesbian. And to claim as she did in the article that her "lesbian era" (puke) shaped who she is and went on to boast about how much of a prize she was for lesbian women because of her body shape, just made me think this is a man pleaser and I stopped reading.

But of course is absolute fodder for the main stream media.

Oh, I see. There was loads of abuse and then it all disappeared.

Just had a look at their Twitter - they seem to be campaigning to look after all POC in the mass redundancies that are occurring in the arts atm.

Actually - you go out and look. I don't need asking twice when I was cross posting.

Nauticant have you never seen women who don't agree insult each other?

Purity spirals?

I replied to some of it on Twitter, as it happens.

But it was over a year ago.

The Pull of the Stars by Emma Donoghue is a magnificent read, which manages to touch on war, poverty, a pandemic, the most horrific realities biological womanhood and homosexuality in a very realistic and humane way. I don't know if Donoghue is woke, there's nothing to suggest it in what I've read. But if she is, it doesn't take one iota of my respect and admiration for her work away. I'd love to have a discussion of the book on here, it's very recently come out.

By the way I should add a content warning, the setting of her book is a ward for heavily pregnant women with the flu during the 1918 pandemic and it requires a strong heart and stomach. It's very, very graphic.