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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bernadine Evaristo

107 replies

OhamIreally · 11/06/2020 23:49

Just saw this woman on Question Time and thought she was fabulous. Eloquent yet precise, passionate and logical.
Her response about the pulling down of the Bristol statue was spot on.

OP posts:
nauticant · 29/07/2020 14:09

Here's the tweet by Shakespeare's Globe Black womxn working in theatre where you can see the gender critical replies:

twitter.com/The_Globe/status/1154749975626170368

That's not a flood of abuse. That's a tsunami of exasperation.

DonkeySkin · 29/07/2020 15:53

If the writing and publishing field , for example, discriminates against feminine gendered people, then why wouldn't those people with a common cause stand in solidarity?

Men can't be 'feminine gendered people'. No matter how much lipstick they wear, no matter what pronouns they adopt.

The 'feminine gender' applies only to women. Some men do enjoy taking on stereotypically feminine appearance norms, whether for self expression or because they find it sexually arousing. Still, their interest in feminine stereotypes invariably begins and ends with the superficial (make-up, clothes), and nobody treats them like women.

As for Bernadine Evaristo, it is disappointing that she's endorsing trans ideology in the press, but that doesn't necessarily mean her book is crap. Lots of young women are identifying as 'non-binary' these days, so it seems a suitable subject for a female author. I wouldn't automatically refuse to read a book because it had a 'non-binary' female character - it would depend on how the author approaches the issue.

While I do understand the feeling of frustration towards Evaristo and others (especially Atwood), I think we need to forget about the vast majority of authors, actors and singers doing anything other than parroting the woke line. When it comes down to it, celebrities and artists are hustlers - they need to network and stay in with the press, and public image is everything to their brand. Very few are going to stand up for anything genuinely controversial. I don't understand why GC feminists keep challenging celebrities on Twitter about trans issues. It only ever results in them doubling down and then acting the martyr about how the mean feminists 'abused' them.

It will be ordinary people, not celebs, who will turn the tide against this ideology.

MsSafina · 29/07/2020 16:13

lots of contemporary fiction hurts my head
There is still plenty of good stuff like Edna O'Brien or the trilogy by Antonia White which deals with many of the issues women are still dealing with today.

MsSafina · 29/07/2020 16:20

@nauticant
Re The Globe tweet. Theatre is in a very precarious position right now. If they double down on wokery, they may find more "traditional" punters stay away and they lose even more money. I used to be a patron of the Orange Tree Theatre but when they went very woke a couple of years ago, they were producing plays that I didn't want to sit through because of the shrill hectoring.

bishopgiggles · 29/07/2020 16:38

@InTheWings

It is possible to include Transwomen in certain gendered contexts without agreeing to the dissolution of women's protected sex-based rights.

If the writing and publishing field , for example, discriminates against feminine gendered people, then why wouldn't those people with a common cause stand in solidarity? Whilst still agreeing that Transwomen in a refuge or a prison, for example, is a different matter?

In a field where black people were found to be under represented, a group of black women put together a photo of them all at the Globe, to make themselves visible. They defined the group as 'womxn' ...presumably there were some Transwomen amongst them, presumably they found femininity, rather than sex, to be a cause of discrimination or lack of representation.

Guess who turned on the campaign and filled their Twitter feed with abuse?

Clue: it wasn't racists.

People do have nuanced beliefs. It's real life. People agree, partially agree, agree with qualifications, agree depending on context..or disagree but still respect and listen to another's pov.

I'm glad you posted this. I know what my views are and I follow/read people with interesting things to say, including those who I know would strongly disagree with me on certain issues. Sometimes I read in case they change my mind, sometimes I read because they are very articulate about other issues and I learn from them. I don't forget that they may have an opinion or ulterior motive colouring their view but I also don't discount the views purely because of this.

It does help me both question and consolidate what I believe.

bishopgiggles · 29/07/2020 16:42

I hadn't heard of the book but it looks interesting - I hadn't realised how much I need full stops to mentally 'take a breath' so I may find it incredibly tiring to read!

Floisme · 29/07/2020 16:54

Thank you for the Globe Twitter link nauticant - interesting.

Floisme · 29/07/2020 17:05

bishop I rolled my eyes at first over the non-punctuation, but I went with it and managed to get into the rhythm, if that makes sense. I'm not sure it entirely worked but I didn't find it hard to read and I don't believe it was done purely for show.

I didn't see the Times piece but I do think there's more to Evaristo than woke polemic, although she may tread a fine line at times.

Divoc2020 · 29/07/2020 17:13

I really tried hard with GWO, but ultimately I felt it lacked shape with just all the individual stories. The lack of punctuation didn't bother me in that I could understand it OK, but this trend does make me roll my eyes a bit!

Ultimately, I felt GWO was a bit of a 'tick box' exercise, covering every possible variation of the gender oppressed, with the over-arching racial issues too.
I felt it was written to win prizes, in the same way I felt Elif Shafak's '10 minutes etc' book was.

I've read the books of quite a few black authors, but I didn't rate this one.

InTheWings · 29/07/2020 17:33

Men can't be 'feminine gendered people'. No matter how much lipstick they wear, no matter what pronouns they adopt. The 'feminine gender' applies only to women

I disagree.

I do not think men can be women, I do not think men can be female. But if gender is a social construct anyone can identify as that gender. But not as that sex.
Feminine: a social construct of ‘like a woman’
Female; a biological fact, IS a woman.

I am a woman, female, and not remotely feminine. Feminine and Masculine are each a spectrum. Some people of both sexes are more, or less, feminine / masculine.

Sex is binary, you are male or female.

Nuffaluff · 29/07/2020 18:10

Oooh, is there going to be a book burning? How exciting.
Why do people think Evaristo is ‘parroting a woke line?’
She’s an award-winning writer and a feminist - I’m sure she’s capable of holding her own opinions. You may not agree with her on something. Why does someone having a different opinion from you make you think that person is stupid or that she’s just claiming to believe something for ‘woke points’?
I don’t get it.
I’ve read Girl, Woman, Other (not just part of the first chapter or glanced at the first page like some on here). I really enjoyed it and particularly loved the character Dominique.
By the way, Jeanette Winterson’s Frankisstein also has trans characters in it, including a transwoman. She’s a feminist isn’t she, or does that get her on some kind of boycott list too?

bishopgiggles · 29/07/2020 18:18

nuff was that aimed at DonkeySkin, as they said the mine you quoted? Not sure they were disagreeing with you?

DianasLasso · 29/07/2020 18:23

Why would there be a book burning? Don't be absurd.

I read lots of authors whose political views I don't agree with. There are lots of authors (some of whom I am reliably informed are giants in their field) whose work just doesn't float my boat so I don't bother.

I'm the person who had a look at the first chapter - because I hadn't heard of her before, and thought I would find out more. The first chapter didn't do it for me because I found it too polemical and didactic, but someone else on here mentioned that part of the point of the book was to feature many different voices, so it may be that while I didn't like the bit I read, the book may be a grower. Or not. Haven't decided whether to get it or not yet.

I certainly wouldn't not read a book because of the politics of the author or because one of the characters wasn't like me. I've read religious allegory (even though I'm an agnostic), libertarian author's sci-fi (even though I'm left-of centre), the works of dyed-in-the-wool misogynists (even though I'm a woman and a feminist). I've read books where the central character is a soldier, or a nun, or a serial killer, or a housewife... Why would I be put off by a trans character?

But - here's the thing. I read for pleasure, not out of a sense of duty (either literary, or cultural, or political, or whatever). If I don't like the beginning of a book, I don't bother to finish it. Life's too short. Maybe I miss out on some gems that way, but I also miss out on many hours of dutiful tedium when I could be doing something I actually enjoy doing.

nauticant · 29/07/2020 18:42

I'd be interested to know whether you're going to read White Fragility DianasLasso.

I saved time by watching a 2 hour youtube presentation by DiAngelo and decided I'd learned enough not to have to bother.

Floisme · 29/07/2020 18:52

I think nuff that if you're going to make quips about posters not reading the book, it might be worth taking your own advice and reading the whole thread. I assume you haven't because, had you done so you would have noticed that there's a wide spread of opinions, although it may not suit your narrative to acknowledge them.

I think Evaristo's a lot more readable than Winterson, whose books - aside from 'Oranges' and 'Why be Happy' I find largely incomprehensible, although she wears some great shoes and I can forgive her a lot for that.

Binterested · 29/07/2020 19:02

OP by the way what did she say about the Bristol statues ? I didn’t see qt but that was what impressed you so I’d be interested to know what her take was.

DianasLasso · 29/07/2020 19:22

@nauticant

I'd be interested to know whether you're going to read White Fragility DianasLasso.

I saved time by watching a 2 hour youtube presentation by DiAngelo and decided I'd learned enough not to have to bother.

Was thinking of going for Reni Eddo-Lodge: Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. You've reminded me that I must download it.

(There just feels like something a bit off about reading a book by a white person about white people's reaction to race politics... sort of missing out on listening to the right people on this issue, I feel.)

nauticant · 29/07/2020 19:50

Give it a few years and the DiAngelo book will have been declared as problematic and everyone lauding it now will have denounced it in very strong terms.

Divoc2020 · 29/07/2020 20:15

You can see the QT section about the statues here:

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=264109854804173

Cecily75 · 29/07/2020 20:27

@DianasLasso
Was thinking of going for Reni Eddo-Lodge: Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. You've reminded me that I must download it.

(There just feels like something a bit off about reading a book by a white person about white people's reaction to race politics... sort of missing out on listening to the right people on this issue, I feel.)

Huh??

DianasLasso · 29/07/2020 20:55

I guess my simple minded thinking is: I have a choice between reading a white author writing about race or a black author writing about race. It's a bit like the choice between a male author writing about feminism versus a female author writing about feminism. I'm going to go for the woman's account first. So I'm going to read Reni Eddo-Lodge first too.

InTheWings · 29/07/2020 21:09

Here's the tweet by Shakespeare's Globe Black womxn working in theatre where you can see the gender critical replies

Thanks for finding that. The Twitter stuff I read was on the group’s own account and I can’t see earlier than July this year, for some reason.

But oh wow. So 200 black women get together to make an image, and the majority of the response is not to acknowledge and support them in their struggle, achievements and celebration as black women in a resoundingly white industry but to criticise their choice, in this particular circumstance, to use womxn.

Isn’t it a bit ‘all lives matter’, all that exasperation? In that particular circumstance?

Binterested · 29/07/2020 21:10

No I’d criticise anyone for using womxn. In any circs.

teezletangler · 29/07/2020 21:26

I suppose how I feel about it is that she isn’t shouting anyone down on Twitter or calling people TERFs. She’s written a novel, which is what she does. And I like to read widely, including novels by people who’s politics I don’t agree with. I’m not going to boycott her because her novels don’t exactly reflect what I think.

This is how I feel too. I've only ever heard her express her views in respectful language. She's not crying "burn the witch". If she were, I wouldn't read her work. I think it's abundantly clear from GWO that she at least understands the other viewpoint, even if she doesn't agree.

MorrisZapp I am so excited to read the new Emma Donoghue. (Though she's a lesbian who lives in Canada so she is almost certainly woke) 😒

stumbledin · 30/07/2020 00:09

InTheWings - you dont know that the price the 200 Black Women had to pay was to agree to be womxn.

This is a publicity stunt. If in a year it has helped the women who attended to achieve what they want (not the Globe PR department) then fine.

It is grotesque to shoehorn into an event about empowering / acknowledging Black women the view of a tiny minority (if you remember an exhibition last year got laughed out of existence) all you are doing is recreating the same patronising ownership of those women's opportunities.

Hardly anyone used that word. It is the sole preserve of a tiny group within the arts world.

The people who are imposing their believes on the women taking part are the ones who are being disrespectful.

Another example of how the white yardstick is the one members of the BAME community are meant to aspire to.

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