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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times today: JK Rowling fell foul of transgender thought police

139 replies

Lamahaha · 03/06/2020 09:51

by Debbie Hayton

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e83cf2ea-a50c-11ea-a585-dcb14d2bcd47?shareToken=eafc66b4f31b2536a5202ea3d0555a9c

OP posts:
Datun · 05/06/2020 14:13

Still waiting, tinsel.

TinselAngel · 05/06/2020 14:15

What shall we do while we wait?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 05/06/2020 14:17

It's likely going to be a while, maybe we could add War and Peace to the reading list?

TinselAngel · 05/06/2020 14:25

I've always fancied learning calligraphy.

Goosefoot · 05/06/2020 14:29

I've looked for the thread from before - it will give me thread titles but it won't let me look at the threads for some reason.

But my memory is that Hayton said directly that they no longer had the same view about use of changing rooms etc.

However, I think the purity test issue is at work here in any case. Anyone who wants to can write an article stating their own views, particularly about something that affects them, they aren't required to agree with anyone else about stuff fist.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 05/06/2020 14:30

If only you were closer and seeing people wasn't potentially lethal! DH knows calligraphy.

R0wantrees · 05/06/2020 14:34

Today's article by Dr Hayton, this time published in The Spectator
'Hungary offers a lesson in crying wolf on ‘transphobia’'

(extract)
"While Britain has been embroiled in a heated debate over proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act, which allows people to change their legal gender on the production of medical reports and a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, in Hungary, Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz government has swept such rights away.

On 19 May, the Hungarian National Assembly voted 133 to 37 to ban transgender people from changing the gender on their identity documents. The word 'nem' – meaning sex or gender – was replaced by the unambiguous term, 'születési nem', meaning sex at birth. Hungary's government's communication office explained that this did not stop people living according to their identities. This might be true. Yet it did mean that their identity documents would expose these people as transgender and put them at risk of discrimination, harassment and abuse.

While English speakers may routinely conflate sex and gender, the fact we have two words allows us to give them different meanings. Sex is biology, while gender is a vaguer term that links to expression or identity. That has allowed English speakers to talk about our gender, while avoiding the harsh realities of biology. Sex is not 'assigned at birth' by something akin to a Hogwarts Sorting Hat. It is observed, often well before birth, and is immutable. Male or female we were created, and male or female we will stay.

It is rather harder to separate them in Hungarian, where there is no second word but exactly the same biology. So Orbán’s government may have a point. But while some campaigners welcome the return to reality, Hungarian transsexuals who have gone through gender reassignment surgery and pass reasonably well as the opposite sex will be forced to carry ID that fails to describe them and exposes them every time they use it. As a small minority they are very vulnerable. " (continues)

But for now an uneasy compromise is maintained in the UK. Under the GRA, transgender people change the sex marker on our birth certificates, but only on production of medical evidence. Meanwhile the marker in British passports can be changed with a letter from their GP. Records held elsewhere – by banks, libraries and the like – can be changed on demand, though it does raise the question why such organisations need to record anyone’s sex in the first place, other than for equal opportunities monitoring.

Unlike the authoritarian politics of Hungary, UK legislatures are largely socially liberal. Social conservatives in our country have no credible equivalent of Orban’s Fidesz party. But social liberals must not be complacent. (continues)

We would be wise as a society to take note of this sooner rather than later. Maybe the Government will be able to oppose the excesses of gender identity ideology, restore confidence and all will be well. But they cannot stand by and do nothing. If social liberals don’t take action, social conservatives will."
www.spectator.co.uk/article/hungary-and-a-lesson-in-crying-wolf-on-transphobia

I'm unsure which lesson Dr Hayton is teaching here & who the intended students are. A LO (learning objective) would be most useful.

Goosefoot · 05/06/2020 14:39

Hayton doesn't align himself with transactivists. He alights himself with the women opposing transactivism. In order to separate himself from the activists who he, quite openly, says are ruining things for him.

He's not speaking for women, no. He is speaking to women. And he appears to be leveraging their analysis of the trans ideology and their campaigning for their own rights, as a means to make a distinction between himself and other transactivists.

Hayton isn't required to agree with transactivists about one thing, or all things they say. There is not a list of discrete positions anyone has to agree with to participate in the public discourse. Hayton can say that the transactivist position is wrong, and bad for trans people. That's not somehow disqualified because to some extent it agrees with, or is even borrowed, from other people or groups.

That's how ideas and public discourse work, they aren't owned by people who get to decide who uses them. If that were the case feminists would have to turn in their right to speak right now, because they didn't come up with the terms and fabric of feminists discourse whole hog. No one ever has.

Saying that you notice things not working well for you because of the actions of a new group of activists is hardly saying you really don't give a shit about the principles, it's only your own life you care about. Again, this place would be depopulated if you said, women, if you've noticed transactivists, or MRAs, or Stonewall, making your life more difficult, and that prompted you to take notice, your views are just self serving and don't count, and you should just keep quiet.

I always find it odd here - on the one hand there is some pretty good insight and recognition of the problems of things like purity spirals, check-box activism, controlled thought or speech. But then you get all this vetting of who has the right motives, who it is ok to read, who has stolen what idea from what group, and some pretty steep purity spirals.

Goosefoot · 05/06/2020 14:42

I'm unsure which lesson Dr Hayton is teaching here & who the intended students are. A LO (learning objective) would be most useful.

I would say, Spectator readers are the audience, and the argument is for maintaining something close to the legal status quo in the UK, or at least the possibility of distinguishing sex and gender.

I'm not sure why you'd find that confusing.

R0wantrees · 05/06/2020 14:47

From the Spectator article:

"The word 'nem' – meaning sex or gender – was replaced by the unambiguous term, 'születési nem', meaning sex at birth."

"While English speakers may routinely conflate sex and gender, the fact we have two words allows us to give them different meanings... It is rather harder to separate them in Hungarian, where there is no second word but exactly the same biology."

Confused

So nem is to gender as születési nem is to sex?
Hungary is now using sex rather than gender on identity documents and clarifying this refers to actual sex.

This seems to be Dr Hayton's main concern presumably he includes himself in this group?

"..transsexuals who have gone through gender reassignment surgery and pass reasonably well as the opposite sex will be forced to carry ID that fails to describe them and exposes them every time they use it. As a small minority they are very vulnerable."

TinselAngel · 05/06/2020 14:50

If the NASUWT Guidance doesn't matter now, I'm not sure whether to start the calligraphy or not?

R0wantrees · 05/06/2020 14:53

the argument is for maintaining something close to the legal status quo in the UK, or at least the possibility of distinguishing sex and gender.

Transactivists, including Dr Hayton, are not seeking to distinguish sex & gender/ gender identity. Considerable efforts have & are being made to prevent such clarification.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 05/06/2020 14:54

Best to order the pens now, Tinsel, to allow time for shipping.

TyroSaysMeow · 05/06/2020 15:03

Yet it did mean that their identity documents would expose these people as transgender and put them at risk of discrimination, harassment and abuse.

This bit says it all.

Instead of actually tackling the underlying attitudes that result in discrimination etc against people who don't conform to the stereotypes associated with their sex, authorities have been allowing allowing a small subset of those people to hide by granting them fake documents.

DH seems to think it's bad that the Hungarian authorities are no longer willing to collude in this particular method of ignoring the human suffering that results from the enforcement of sex stereotypes.

I dare say said authorities are still massively fucking up in many other areas, and I don't see any indication that the Hungarians have any sort of proposal for how to overthrow the patriarchy, but I approve of them trying to avoid some of the shit we're seeing here by making it damned clear that one's birth certificate records one's sex at birth.

I think it's a bit disingenuous of DH to make a point of praising English for having separate words for sex and gender where Hungarian doesn't when a lot of the trouble we're seeing over here is precisely because most people - trans or otherwise - don't actually understand gender to be anything beyond a synonym for sex. The authorities sure as hell don't; they've been using "gender" to refer to one's being male or female for ages. Kudos to the Hungarians for making the distinction clear.

Saying that you notice things not working well for you because of the actions of a new group of activists is hardly saying you really don't give a shit about the principles

No, but the fact DH hasn't detransitioned is a clear demonstration that either DH does not in fact give a shit about the principles or DH does not in fact understand the principles.

R0wantrees · 05/06/2020 15:04

Has anybody found evidence that Dr Hayton no longer stands by that NASUWT guidance yet?

There are numerous Safeguarding implications should the recommendations from the NASUWT document be adopted by a school.

R0wantrees · 05/06/2020 15:40

I've looked for the thread from before - it will give me thread titles but it won't let me look at the threads for some reason.

But my memory is that Hayton said directly that they no longer had the same view about use of changing rooms etc.

Is it this thread you're thinking of Goose ?

6th June 2019 OP DancingRaven wrote,

"I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies#prettyPhoto

Times today: JK Rowling fell foul of transgender thought police
Datun · 05/06/2020 20:55

Most of it is politics? Dear lord.

OldCrone · 05/06/2020 21:13

Instead of actually tackling the underlying attitudes that result in discrimination etc against people who don't conform to the stereotypes associated with their sex, authorities have been allowing allowing a small subset of those people to hide by granting them fake documents.

This was one of the reasons behind the passing of the original GRA in 2004 (the other one was to allow same sex marriage by pretending that one of the people had changed sex).

It should have been obvious to everyone at the time (and now) that the solution wasn't to pretend that someone had changed sex, but to say that anyone can present as they want to, call themselves by whatever name they want to, love who they want, and should not be harassed, discriminated against or abused for doing so.

TyroSaysMeow · 05/06/2020 21:35

They compounded the problem in 2010 too. How best to word it, I'm not sure, but I reckon if anything were to be made a protected characteristic it ought to have been nonconformity rather than reassignment.

But of course, that wouldn't do at all, because it would mean it would be illegal to discriminate against women who refuse to comply with the demands of the femininity construct.

Instead they prefer to make a sexist law that a) disadvantages women and gives us no protection unless we rescind our sex-class membership and declare ourselves nonwomen while b) stripping us of our sex-based rights. All in order to alleviate their own guilt about chucking men out of the man club for being gay.

TehBewilderness · 06/06/2020 00:32

The very first thing Hayton said in the article regarding Jo Rowling was a lie. The first effing thing.
Debbie Hayton uses women to self promote. This article is a textbook example of how.

TehBewilderness · 06/06/2020 00:36

Regarding the toilet usage policy, Hayton appears to enjoy putting their students and associates on the spot by asking them if they mind if he uses the women and girls toilets.
His behavior with women and girls made perfect sense to me once he confessed to being AGP.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/06/2020 01:04

An adult "asking" a child who is their student if the child minds that adult doing something that they knew very well the child may not want them to do in a scenario in which the adult is already insisting on being referred to as Miss Female Name is being disgustingly manipulative.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 06/06/2020 01:37

"While English speakers may routinely conflate sex and gender, the fact we have two words allows us to give them different meanings. "

The fact is those those two word have been conflated & are being used to mean the same thing.

kesstrel · 06/06/2020 09:45

Goosefoot

This thread made me wonder, so I had a look at D Hayton's blog. This could be the source you were looking for, from a couple of months ago:

And it is true, there is nothing I can do as a trans woman that I could not do as a man, apart from breach women’s boundaries and appropriate their sex-based rights. I don’t do those things so arguably I have gained nothing.

debbiehayton.wordpress.com/2020/04/08/gender-identity-is-bollocks/#more-765

Of course, he could be lying about this, and I'm sure some will believe that he is. However, a false claim would undoubtedly make him vulnerable to being discredited, since it might be disproved at any time by one of his colleagues or someone else. And iff there is one thing he's shown, it's that he is a good tactician.

Datun · 06/06/2020 10:11

Debbie may think that that blog remark doesn't necessarily contradict his assertion that he asks if he can use the ladies. Not realising that the power dynamic will often mean women feel unable to say no.