Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

Ascot, Never.

Possibly Brighton.

I always think of it as a transwoman being a transgender man, ie a man who is transgender.

Trans is short for Transgender, so it's Transgender Woman, you would never write transgenderwoman just like you would never write tallwoman, smallwoman etc. Even Wonder Woman got that right.

I think most people, if trying to communicate clearly, would write Transgender man. Since referring to the fact that a transwoman is male has been considered deeply offensive, even in abstract discussion, people opt for transwoman out of courtesy.

I think you might have an argument that transsexual men should reasonably be discussed as if they are women in many contexts (other will disagree) but transgender includes (for example) the likes of Danielle Muscato. Pointing out that DM is not a woman in any meaningfull sense is hardly the same as suggesting a short woman is not a woman.

False, what’s a Transgender woman?

@OneEpisode You're welcome to Google it if you're not sure.

@MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing @TheProdigalKittensReturn Only if the tide was in.

Falseimage Just to facilitate discussion, do you use the words man/woman, boy/girl to refer to gender identity or sex?

Again this thread is about OPs ability to discuss women's rights.

Why does this board centre transwomen to the extent. A casual observer might conclude that posters were transphobic. It is a board for feminist chat.

@PaleBlueMoonlight Both.

@Needmoresleep I think any observer would recognise the transphobic comments.

You must report any transphobic comments False

MN doesbt tolerate transphobic comments and will be sure to delete them

In that case False it would help if when you use those words you flag which meaning you are using so that we know we are talking about the same thing. I think for most people on this board you can assume that they are referring to sex and you should maybe bear that in mind when responding so that you don’t answer as if they had been referring to gender identity.

I've lost some casual acquaintance type pals, and sadly one who really mattered, but I have made some wonderful new friendships with GC women I've met.

This. I’ve developed an amazing friendship group through feminism.

False Image. I am not seeing any transphobia. And you were one of the posters I was referring to.

However I do not understand why you and other posters keep focussing on transwomens want and needs. This is a feminist board. Why are you so obsessed about transwomen. Are women not allowed to centre themselves.

@Needmoresleep

Again this thread is about OPs ability to discuss women's rights.

Why does this board centre transwomen to the extent. A casual observer might conclude that posters were transphobic. It is a board for feminist chat.

To what extent? There must be the odd trans woman posting here what, every three months? Hardly ‘centre’. Strange comment.

This site is monitored closely by people who love to take a screenshot and lost it on twitter. Not all those posts are even genuine.

Of course the mods keep a very close eye on things - so it’s a joke when the site is held up as the most hateful online community when Twitter keeps up tweets accusing names people of pedophilia/being like JS, threats (veiled and otherwise) and outright lies and fantasy.

By transphobic you mean a refusal to believe unquestioningly that a male is whatever a male says he is.

You believe in stripping female humans of all single sex spaces for the better happiness and need meeting of males. Females resisting that in your eyes are wrong.

If you're desperate to have mixed sex facilities, campaign for those. In addition. You cannot justify stripping away the meeting of the needs of female humans who do not share in your beliefs, in order for you to make male humans happy. Not without reiterating your core belief, which is that male humans matter and female humans exist to serve male ones.

Again, your belief, your right. Be honest about what it is. And don't act surprised on a feminist chat board when female humans don't agree they were born to serve males, because ffs.

You inferred that you believe that people without a GRC remain their birth sex @FalseImage. Many loud TRAs would consider that transphobic.

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Some people seem to forget this.

Maria53 I have definitely had heart in mouth when this has cropped up with certain friends, but for the most part the discussions have been good and, even if I haven’t instantly changed minds, I have caused them to stop and actually think. They have also kept my feet on the ground in reminding me that the transgender activists are not representative of most people grappling with these issues (be they trans, parents of, colleagues of etc). I must admit though that I have not raised it with my greatest friend at all. I think that we would be on the same page, but I cannot risk it at the moment.

And there's no point in pointing out the bleeding obvious (except to the lurkers and the new here) that this board is strongly moderated, by HQ and by a group of extremely tedious males with control issues and deeply ingrained male supremacist beliefs.

Posters such as the one arguing - well, not arguing, rather disingenuously and underhandedly pushing - for male supremacism will never agree that this board is not 'transphobic' until females here are prevented from questioning, discussing or in any way thwarting males in the free carrying out of whatever they wish. That is what they mean when they throw that very tired word around. Female disobedience.

Fetch the ducking stool and the crosses, etc etc. It's really that tedious.

Gotoworkdontgotowork

Just reread this thread. Some posters seem completely obsessed by trans rights. It is dull and boring. And gives MN a bad name.

OP is essentially asking about what to do when she disagrees with a friend over an issue her friend feels strongly about.

I don't understand the need for repetitive, essentially unintelligent posts about trans. Or the reasons behind the obsessions. This is a feminist chat board. Let's focus on womens rights. Including when there is a conflict of rights between various groups.

Surely the obsessives can find somewhere else to go. Plenty of forums who will welcome a few allies. And I really dont give a stuff where posters are female male or trans. I do however think all should recognise that this is a place to discuss womens issues. And to centre women.

I saw the whole trans thing summed up brilliantly yesterday (apologies if someone has already said it - haven’t read the full thread):

“Identifies as = isn’t, and knows it, but really really wants to be, and has a sad about it”

Perfect 😁

maria, some decades ago a family member of mine was imprisoned (not in the UK!) for having the ‘wrong’ political beliefs. In prison, he was subjected to violence and positional torture (that’s where you have to hold an unnatural position for hours). His health suffered. He was underfed and lost weight dramatically. At times he believed he was about to be executed (he was sentenced to death but the sentence was not carried out). He was kept in isolation for long periods. When he came out of prison, no one would employ him & he was socially excluded. He never compromised his beliefs. He could have come out of prison much earlier if he had : but he didn’t.

Decades on, he and the others who stood with him are seen as having behaved heroically. They are written about & celebrated.

But it wasn’t easy for him. He was wracked by self doubt. Standing up to others - whether in this extreme way or in less dangerous ways - is always immensely difficult. Just do what you think is right. It will not be easy for you either, but you will learn strength and principle which will support you through life.

My relative never allowed himself to be filled with hate. He was always willing to engage with others. I think that’s a good test: those who reject and demonise those who disagree with them with insulting names etc ( as opposed to just disagreeing) are generally in the wrong. So keep on offering the hand of friendship, don’t insult, don’t reject her, but don’t conceal your beliefs. If she rejects you it will be deeply upsetting, but it will be her mistake.

How to cope with political disagreements in relationships is a really interesting point. It’s a shame this thread has been hijacked by someone who doesn’t want this issue to be discussed .....

If we were to write sea horse rather than seahorse we'd be able to race them at Ascot, right?