Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

but by no means are they granted automatically, that normal requires a judge to approve the exception if it goes to court.

This is nonsense. The exemptions for single sex so that female only spaces can be provided under the EA are used by millions of organisations and services every single day. They aren't specific to males who identify as women. What would need to happen is that one of those males would need to bring a discrimination claim. However the EA regards all males without GRC as legally male, so no discrimination has taken place.

Every day is upside down day in TRAlandia.

I'm amused that we've gone from "they're just people living their lives, be kind and educate urself, they just want to peee" via "I'm refusing to tell you how these people are women" to "poundshop legal expert" in a few hours. It's a wild ride!

all the decent transgender people who I see on Twitter are fully supportive of JK Rowling. They understand that people can't actually change sex and they are only presenting as the opposite gender. They are the sensible transgender people who are worth listening to

This.

Sometimes, people jumping - in as your friends are doing OP - don't actually help.

I think a lot of "ordinary" (so-called) people are put off by the extreme transgender activists' actions, and it makes it tough for transwomen just trying to get on with their lives, and managing a painful condition.

@Ereshkigalangcleg You may wish to run that logic past a lawyer/barrister who specialises in discrimination on the basis of "sex" and "gender reassignment" characteristics. The exemptions act as "legalised discrimination" clauses, i.e. allow discrimination to occur under limited conditions which must always be proportional and legitimate.

OP I had a disagreement with my best friend over this. She believes feminism is for everyone and that people can change sex. We did have a bit falling out over this as I don't. She a adores Dr of biology who thinks TWAW and avidly follows said Dr on Twitter. it seems that some of her thinking is formed from her admiration.

I think feminism is for woman only. I also believe that people can't change sex.

However, we agree to disagree and she gets a swift rebuke when she calls woman t@rfs.
We are still good friends despite this different out look.

Sadly there are dodgy characters everywhere and yes, this is another way some might explore to access women. But I've not met any like that yet

Thing is, it's not a "fear" (phobia) of transpeople - it's a realistic risk assessment of men who will (are already, actually) use the assumption of self-ID to get access to girls and women - they are the dodgy characters. Karen White etc etc etc

You may wish to run that logic past a lawyer/barrister who specialises in discrimination on the basis of "sex" and "gender reassignment" characteristics.

I have. More than once. There are differing legal opinions about this, as there are in many other things. The EHRC clarified in a statement in 2018 at the time of the GRC consultation that non GRC holders are legally male. It's perfectly reasonable to consider women's privacy and dignity both proportional and legitimate. You've been misled, I think. Why do you think so many councils and the CPS itself have recently withdrawn their gender-identity-based guidelines for schools for review, following the threat of legal challenge?

Now, about how these people are actually women?

You will never get a straight answer. They can’t explain in simple terms what a woman is - but they just know a transwoman is one. Mental.

I'm quite aware that FalseImage doesn't have an answer, other than "because they say they are".

@Ereshkigalangcleg I've already clearly stated that I'm not going to play the "define a woman" game.

Yes. Hence my post.

Why not? Why can't you define what a woman is? That definition is fundamental to who we are as a sex.

It's all a "game" apparently. So FalseImage despite believing that this definition that she/he/they can't or won't articulate is critical to whether women get to have male free spaces or not, isn't playing.

@Ereshkigalangcleg "Why do you think so many councils and the CPS itself have recently withdrawn their gender-identity-based guidelines for schools for review, following the threat of legal challenge?"
Probably due to poorly written guidance material, rather than the EA itself. The legal challenges were to do with specific guidance wording as far as I can see.

It's a "game" that people whose grip on reality is tenuous believe that they can "win", and if they do then humanity as a whole will forget that people can't change sex.

@Ereshkigalangcleg I've played the game before and to be honest it's tedious at best.

@Campervan69

I personally haven't lost friends over this because my friends are intelligent enough to know that people are entitled to have different opinions. It depends if your friends are members of a cult and think that everybody has to think the same or whether they believe in freedom of thought and belief.

To be honest if your friends are so shallow that they would fall out with you over this then they are not proper friends in the first place . Friends accept you for what you are they don't try to change you.

How old are your friends? Before I read the OP, I thought, well it depends on her age. I haven’t lost friends. One of my younger colleagues was shocked and upset- it really does feel akin to saying you’re racist- but we’ve agreed to never mention it. I quietly remove the ‘identifies as a woman’ criterion from paperwork I have to do, knowing that senior management would have my back if it got challenged.

It's a "game" that people whose grip on reality is tenuous believe that they can "win", and if they do then humanity as a whole will forget that people can't change sex.

Indeed. They especially think they can win if they don't undermine their own nonsense by trying to explain it.

Probably due to poorly written guidance material, rather than the EA itself. The legal challenges were to do with specific guidance wording as far as I can see.

"Poorly written guidance wording" that failed to consider the rights of girls. That's definitely related to the EA.

[quote FalseImage]@SuitedandBooted We do have a criminal justice system in the UK which is there to deal with criminals from all groups of people. Criminals entering women's spaces will include people from the "women", "trans women" and "male" groups. If you're going to exclude people based on the logic of "one committed a crime so they are all excluded", women's spaces would be completely empty. [/quote]
"transwomen" are males and commit sexual crimes at the same rate as other males. You're not seriously arguing that women can in any way compete.

Besides which, the desire and need for exclusively female spaces is not just about the danger of attack. For me, me fear of being attacked by males in toilets is vanishingly small. For me personally the privacy and dignity issues play a far greater role. I do not want to share any space where I might want to undress (and yes, I've undressed in toilets umpteen times, because I fly sometimes to tropical countries where a change of clothes is necessary at airports) with males. I do not want to share a shower with a male. I do not what my two granddaughters to share a shower with a male. I should think there's not a single parent who thinks that is a good idea.

I don't even want to share a shower or changing room with males whom I know, males who I know to be good people and who will never attack me -- friends, relatives, who are male. And they would not do that in a million years. Good males simply know it's wrong. It's only the creepy ones who insist.

Probably due to poorly written guidance material, rather than the EA itself. The legal challenges were to do with specific guidance wording as far as I can see.

Legal challenges as to what guidance? What was the problem with it, considered serious enough to pull as not likely to stand up in court?

The guidance was incompatible with the legal rights and needs of female children. This is the only point of debate over it: those who believe it's ok to subordinate female children in law and practice to benefit male ones, and those who think that female children should be given equal legal protection and regard to male ones.

If you want to believe in this anti female activism go for it, but at least have the guts to be honest about it!

A fucking game. I'm not surprised False finds it so tedious when there's only the one allowed response that isn't a thoughtcrime.

Come on girls, the game's over - the boys want their ball back.

Give me strength.

I think we need to keep remembering WHY we have separate sex facilities, because it's easy to dismiss women's concerns as "prudish" or "uptight" or worse, "paranoid" .

98% of sexual assault crimes are committed by men. And those are just the ones reported.

Women & girls are at risk all the time - we live in a society which is fundamentally structured around male violence - patriarchy.

So one way of trying to mitigate against this, and minimise risk is to separate men from women & girls in places where females are particularly vulnerable.

That's one reason for single sex spaces.

Another is that women need spaces where they are not dominated physically or mentally by men - perhaps posters here have experienced that freedom from male voices, gazes & dominance in the conversation in a woman-only bookclub? That sort of thing. It's liberating.

Women-only discussion and consciousness raising groups were one of the techniques of the late 60s/early 70s Women's liberation movement.