Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

350 replies

Maria53 · 30/05/2020 00:14

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

OP posts:
NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 30/05/2020 21:05

if the service provider wanted to use an exemption clause to justify their legal discrimination they would need to convince a judge that it was proportional and legitimate.

And, assuming common sense prevails, then they should be able to do just that.

Elsiebear90 · 30/05/2020 21:11

@FalseImage if all a man has to do is go to court and say “I identify as a woman” to change his legal gender then how can we know if he feels genuine gender dysphoria or if he is just a pervert exploiting the system? Even if he does feel gender dysphoria, if he has a male body (has not undergone GRC) and he is a biological male, him “identifying” as a woman, does not mean he should share and have access to female only spaces imo, his self identified gender doesn’t trump his very obvious biological sex in this instance I would argue. That’s the issue I have, you cannot just say “I’m a woman” and become a woman. Gender and sex are two different things and someone may identify as a woman, or a man, but when their actions and appearance do not align with that very few people are going to also view them as that gender and many will quite rightly feel uncomfortable sharing sex segregated areas and undressing etc with them.

Elsiebear90 · 30/05/2020 21:12

*GRS

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 30/05/2020 21:16

That’s the issue I have, you cannot just say “I’m a woman” and become a woman

My views take it further: you can't become a woman. You either are. Or you're not.

HermioneWeasley · 30/05/2020 21:17

Me: define “women” without a circular definition
@FalseImage “no, I’m not playing your game”

They never answer, because there is no answer that’s not nonsense.

Women are adult human females. Transwomen are adult human males. Women have nothing in common with transwomen that they don’t also have in common with men.

Clymene · 30/05/2020 21:18

@FalseImage - Freddie McConnell got a GRC and a few days later, went to a fertility clinic to try to conceive using donor sperm.

Do you think seeking to become pregnant is the action of someone who is determined to drive in their acquired gender for the rest of their life?

Soontobe60 · 30/05/2020 22:07

@jellyfrizz

I don’t think we’re ever going to have true trans acceptance if there is denial of trans people’s journey. They were born a different sex to the one they wish to be. This is ok.

Insisting that trans people are actually the sex they wish to be erases a whole chunk of who they are. I don’t see how this is acceptance.

I don't think we're ever going to have true trans acceptance if we are expected to ignore science, and be gaslighted into believing we must be transphobic if we don't agree with the myth that people can be "born into the wrong body". Gender is a social construct. In different societies, and at different times throughout history, gender expectations have changed many times. A transgender person is someone who wants to present with the characteristics of the gender norms for their opposite sex. All well and good and ok. The only way this issue is going to be dealt with is that everyone accepts the truth that sex cannot be changed, but gender can. Would you be so accepting if a blonde haired blue eyed girl decided she wanted to identify as Kim Kardashian? No, absolutely not. In fact, lots of women do go so far as to have cosmetic surgery to try to look like her, but even if they changed their name and told everyone to call them Kim because that's who they now were, we'd think they were bonkers!
FreckledLeopard · 30/05/2020 22:23

I've had to unfriend people on Facebook over the issue (thankfully no close friends of mine have drunk the kool-aid). For me it's a non-negotiable for a friendship. It's such a black and white issue to me, I just couldn't be friends - or maintain a friendship - with someone who was willing to abandon all logic and rationality in favour of being woke.

I'm sure other people have issues they won't compromise on or couldn't have friendships with others who think differently. Most other things I'm totally happy to agree to disagree but not this. Thank god the people I like and respect most have similar views to me when it comes to gender critical feminism.

Maria53 · 30/05/2020 22:44

This freshly published article by a trans woman is very good: www.spectator.com.au/2020/04/gender-identity-is-bollocks/

Its actually quite upsetting as these are people I have got on very well with for over a decade. I cant tell you how it felt to have both friends disagree with me then go on to bond with each other over the issue.

OP posts:
Maria53 · 30/05/2020 22:45

Didnt realized it was published in April so not that fresh! But yes supports you are male and present as a woman but cannot actually be a woman.

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 30/05/2020 22:48

[quote FalseImage]@Elsiebear90 Trans women don't behave like perverted men, that's what perverted men do. [/quote]
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629
data.justice.gov.uk/prisons

Both the above links have data pertaining to transgender prisoners and the prison population as a whole.
Of the known TG population, 48% were in prison for committing a sex crime. And of those, 53% were convicted rapists/attempted rapists. That's a crime committed by men against women.

The whole prison population in the second report shows 18% are convicted of a sex crime. (It doesn't specify individual numbers for different sex crimes).

A transgender prisoner is, by the above data, 2.6 times more likely to be in prison for a sexual offence than the whole of the prison population.

And you think that no transgender woman behaves like a perverted man? Methinks you've been brainwashed.

popehilarious · 30/05/2020 22:59

OP, do you know what I'd consider doing? Keep quiet, say, yes, I've been reading up on it and you're right. Read up on how not to be at all transphobic. Go down that rabbit hole.
Then make sure you show your friends how much you've learnt.
If they are transphobic - gently point it out. They should be grateful to learn.
If they refer to anyone as 'he' or 'she' without first checking what that person's gender identity is - tell them why that is offensive and oppressive.

If they refer to biology or physical sex, remind them that a belief in two immutable sexes is 'not worthy of respect in democratic society' and that we shouldn't say that any more.

If they refer to homosexuality as same-sex attracted - remind them that's not true and biologically male-female couples can face worse discrimination than AMAB/AMAB or AFAB/AFAB.

Remind them that anyone voicing any of the above opinions could be fired for it, and rightly so.

Any time they complain about periods, pregnancy-related issues, sex discrimination - remind them that men suffer from these as well so make sure they think of the men, and also that they're transphobic to complain about it because it's displaying cis privilege as trans women are generally unable to have the privilege of experiencing them.

Maybe show them Diana Thomas's column in the Telegraph and check that they agree that it's representative of women.

Either they believe it or they don't.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 31/05/2020 00:22

[quote FalseImage]@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace He's not a woman, whereas women and trans women are. [/quote]
oh dear

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/05/2020 00:28

Wow, we haven't had a "because I say so, my circular definition is the end of the argument" person in a while. Granted that it's funny in a way, but also kind of disturbing in the way that observing indoctrination always is.

BatShite · 31/05/2020 00:33

If you're going to exclude people based on the logic of "one committed a crime so they are all excluded"

Don't think anyone on here has argued that if one person commits a crime, that means all out tbh.

Exclusion is based on SEX, not behaviour...nor gender. It makes genuinely no sense to segregate anywhere by 'gender' to me, given gender appears to be stereotypes + personality, how would you even seperate based on that? And thats besides the point anyway, sex segregated areas are segregated by sex, nothing else. And obviously, a female only space instantly becomes a mixed sex space once males are allowed in, and many women do not consent to that. Some might..I think I would be correct in saying you don't mind mixed sex, but other womens consent is not yours to give away.

BatShite · 31/05/2020 00:35

Transwmen committing crimes against women is not brought up to say 'look, this person was bad so they are all Very Bad'..as thats clearly ridiculous. However, there is no proof at all that criminality stats nor male pattern violence changes because someone utters the magic words 'I am a woman'. Why would it? Yet some seem invested in pretending those words turn someone into some harmless innocent puppy or something Hmm

OneEpisode · 31/05/2020 00:38

BlueBooby I hope the future Is brighter. Flowers

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/05/2020 00:39

I agree with Daca though, we've done this derail a gazillion times and it's never any less boring.

OP, the quick answer to your question is that you might, but if you do was that person as good a friend as you thought they were anyway? If they're willing to cut you off over a disagreement after years of friendship? The other thing to consider is that the pushback against TRA propaganda is gathering steam as we speak, so you may find that someone who goes off in a huff now reconsiders a few months down the line. There's also the possibility of just ducking the issue for now as much as you can, whether or not that's workable will depend both on whether you're comfortable not saying what you think when it comes up and whether she lets you obviously duck the issue without insisting on a fight.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 31/05/2020 00:42

And because it has been on this thread so many times, it's transwoman not trans woman.
Transwomen are not a subset of women. Trans is not a descriptor of a certain type of woman.
It is transwoman.
This really really really irks me.
Transgender not trans gender,
Transphobic not trans phobic,
No spaces.
And if transwomen are women, what are they transitioning from?
Having a flappy bit of paper does not make you a woman.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 31/05/2020 06:50

Reminder to a certain poster-
Single sex exemptions in the EA (2010) enables single sex spaces - toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons, sport etc, to achieve a proportional aim - safety, dignity, privacy and access for women (women defined as female of any age). This enables the legal exclusion of transwomen (irrespective of paperwork) on the factual basis that transwomen are actually men.

In practice this has been diluted due to Stonewall ‘law’ bullshit misinterpretation of the law but the actual law is clear and different and needs to be applied by institutions.

Michelleoftheresistance · 31/05/2020 08:55

Argh lord this gets tedious.

You're welcome to believe that males turn into women when they identify themselves as transwomen. Go for it. You're welcome to believe in angels, creationism, socialism, fairies at the bottom of your garden, whatever. It's a free country, you follow your own beliefs and values.

And you can give me the same respect in return, because I and many other female humans do not believe that transwomen are women or should be in female spaces, or are safe or able to use female spaces if males are in them. End of conversation.

What you're basically saying (over and over) is that you would like to see female humans stripped of the right to have any spaces of their own, so that male humans can be happy and have their needs met.

It's male supremacism. It's a thing. Whatever floats your boat. I think frankly its about as uninclusive or equality based as you can get but so long as you don't force your beliefs on me you enjoy yourself. If you do force your beliefs on me however, try to repress female humans or subordinate their needs, or state untruths to further your personal politics, I will tell it to you how it is because you have forced me to the discourtesy.

If male people hadn't done that in the first place, and weren't daily continuing to do that, FWR would still be a tiny, quiet backwater of MN, where about ten highly academic women were still discussing post grad stuff most of the rest of us couldn't even follow.

Michelleoftheresistance · 31/05/2020 09:01

And for the record, I'm not interested any more in what paperwork a male has, or how that male labels themselves, or what cosmetic changes they've made because this movement has been so obnoxiously anti female, uncaring and appallingly antisocial in their behaviour that it's no longer relevant.

Female single sex spaces are intended to meet the needs of female humans. That's what they're for. Male humans will have to sort out other arrangements that work for them. They cannot commandeer female resources out of male entitlement and some distorted belief that females should only be allowed what males have left over after males are happy and have everything they want.

Needmoresleep · 31/05/2020 09:12

I agree completely about the derail.

The "debate" has been structured starting with the assumption that Self-ID should enable automatic access to single sex spaces, even those spaces designed for the most vulnerable.

Then any push-back is labelled as Phobic of "right wing", and requiring women to justify their actions. Then to top it all Stonewall lobbying used a #nodebate tactic. As in, our position is some obviously correct, we refuse to engage with other groups in society.

The societal debate should start where society left it, with the original GRA and Equalities Acts. Are there problems, what are these, how might they be remedied. A diversity of groups should have been consulted, representing women and also a range of religious interests. (Why do we tiptoe around religious communities in places like Rotherham even when there are clear and significant safeguarding breaches, but ignore the same groups when we are talking about dignity and privacy and their ability to participate in a wider society.) Instead consultation was mainly with LGBT groups and essentially about ensuring men who had a female gender identity feel comfortable and valued. Very little about Transmen. Very little about the medical and scientific facts. ROGD teenagers and Intersex people seemed to be used simply as Gotchas to win arguments.

And posters here do the same.

I am, like most of us, a constructive member of our society. I pay taxes and don't break the law. In return our democracy decrees I am entitled to a voice.

Over the past decade I have been increasingly frustrated by the capture of the high moral group by Momentum types who know they are right, and the rest of us are not only wrong but apparently evil. I speak four European languages, and have genuine doubts about the future of the EU. That means I can be called racist (by someone who thought South Korea was in the EU no less!) I am wicked for sending my children to private school, complaints led by someone who rented in a better catchment thus taking a place from someone else, despite having the family wealth to easily pay fees. It was even apparently right that DS failed to even get a Skype interview for a public sector graduate job even though he had a distinction in a well regarded and relevant technical Masters, was waitlisted for a position with the American equivalent and has received full funding for a PhD at a top 10 US University, as white people need to atone for colonialism.
I kid you not, though I don't actually think my Irish forebears played a
(big role. DS was filtered out via an initial questionnaire asking whether he "strongly agreed" or "strongly disagreed" to a bunch of odd assertions. As an apolitical statistician his preferred answer would probably have been "show me the data first". I fear our modern Civil Service probably prefers people who start of with the "right" views.)

I am heartily sick of being wrong, even wicked, at every turn, despite being exhausted after a decade of being club sandwiched between teenage children, needy elderly parents and a full time job. And now I am told that my views don't count when decisions are made that affect me about allowing men to self ID onto female hospital wards, or causing young people to have to face gender neutral toilets in nightclub venues, or, worst of all, seeing a couple of mothers worried sick and without support when their DC suddenly announce they are "trans". And equally that I am not allowed a voice when decisions are being made to overturn protections for the most vulnerable.

I don't like Boris and think Cummings is very odd indeed. However I am glad that someone has recognised that the Red Wall, Jews, women, people like me, are all sick of being insulted and ignored.

I don't know why some posters seem to feel the need to derail discussion between women, rather than simply contribute their views. It implies a level of arrogance. I wonder what they think they are achieving.

So OP you have your evidence. We all need to feel confident enough to express reasonable views, and be willing to listen to the views of others. If your friend cannot do that, you need to think carefully about whether you are prepared to allow her to silence you. I promise sooner or later you will get sick of this.

Ditto politicians. Cummings was predictable. As probably was Trump, and indeed the current riots. And sadly I think that recent antics have eroded support for the almost 5,000 who have GRCs and for LGBs. I accept that gender dysphoria exists and am happy to support the right for people to live with respect and dignity. Unfortunately too many have jumped onto the bandwagon, and tried to exploit existing provisions for their own ends. Again a swingback is probably inevitable.

Plenty of people will argue that this issue is about safeguarding. I would argue that it is more fundamental than that. It about free speech. Freedom of expression and opinion. On campuses, in the Civil Service, in the media, in the workplace, in society. Then we have the freedom to start talking about safeguarding and the rights that women need.

Go, OP, go!

FalseImage · 31/05/2020 09:21

@TheWordWomanIsTaken Trans is short for Transgender, so it's Transgender Woman, you would never write transgenderwoman just like you would never write tallwoman, smallwoman etc. Even Wonder Woman got that right.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/05/2020 09:40

If we were to write sea horse rather than seahorse we'd be able to race them at Ascot, right?