New article on the UK usage of "Karen"

[VeganFeminism]

medium.com/@thisveganfeminist/get-back-in-your-box-karen-bd0c9d4c833e

Hello,

I have written an article on why I think the usage of "Karen" is problematic. I wonder if anyone could give me some feedback on it as this is my first time writing about feminism? Any comments appreciated!

Please note: I am British, and this article criticizes how Karen is typically used in the UK. I am told that the “Karen” reference has a different meaning in US English; that is not what I am referring to in this piece.

Absolutely: you expressed it so much more succinctly than I did!

It was so striking that this happened on the very same day as I read the thread.
Beardy woke bro.
Meme.

I am from UK and have only ever heard "Karen" being used to shame women completely outside of any racial context. Like one I recall, a white woman chastising white man over parking. "What a Karen".

Last time I saw it used was on a video of the lockdown easing, some people were dancing in the street (2m apart seemingly). There were probably more women than men. So this was 'look at all these Karens'

Last time I saw it used was on a video of the lockdown easing, some people were dancing in the street (2m apart seemingly). There were probably more women than men. So this was 'look at all these Karens'

I've seen it used in a derogatory way twice on MN in the last 3 days.

Interesting chat with my UK teens about this tonight. They felt strongly that it is used very specifically re. entitlement/bad behaviour and haven't seen it as simple misogyny/ageism. They were surprised it is regarded as offensive.

carltongirl - bet your teens aren't "bearded wokebros"

Seems from the disparate reported sightings that "Karen" means different things to different demographics - the only thing consistent is that a female name is being used to criticise or slur.

Rather like "the C word" we now have "the K word".

While there are dick-heads of both sexes, it's hard to imagine a woman being called a "prick".

I disagree with you on the connotations of the Karen meme but my biggest issue is your assertion that 30 is middle aged and that after 30 your looks fade and nobody pays attention to you. I’m almost 31 and I’m most certainly not middle aged (that would imply I’m halfway through my life and I certainly hope I won’t die at 62) and neither are my looks fading. I wasn’t brought up to be quiet and subservient either, I’ve always been an argumentative loudmouth. There are a lot of sweeping generalisations in your blog which make it difficult to engage with

dodgeball I’m sure you are lovely.
And professionally you might be young till say 35 if you are a lawyer,
But middle age isn’t a single year. Socially it’s 30s, 40s and 50s.
I think Saga holidays, aimed at “old people”, including insurance, start at 55.

But then you turn thirty and your looks smart to fade. Men start paying less attention to you, people aren’t as friendly to you, and you no longer have as many job offers as you once did. You realize that your youth and naivety gave you a free pass to the world

I thought this was a rather silly comment and a huge exaggeration and spoilt the article. Being over 30 however is probably the age at which idiots think "Karen" can be applied.

That phrase has always annoyed with its stupidity. Looks don't fade, they change as we age (because it would be creepy if we didn't). Not looking like a twenty year old doesn't mean "fading away" - it just means not looking like a twenty year old.

People live a lot longer than twenty in general, why attach that sell by date? When was the last time you heard someone comment on a man over thirty having "lost his looks"?

My Grandmother is in her eighties. At a friend's gathering last year it turned out through chat that one of their relatives knows her social circle, the descriptive comment made to me was "oh yes I know her, she is a very beautiful woman isn't she?" - and yes she is.

I think fade is quite descriptive of the feeling I have as a very definitely middle aged woman. Science say I am not actually invisible, but somehow it seems like I am fading into the scenery, and my voice fading too. Some of this happens to older men too I suspect.

Thanks for all the feedback. This is my 1st time writing an article like this, so I really appreciated all of the comments.

In regards to what I said about turning 30, I stand by those comments. In my industry (entertainment), you do get less work, attention, and respect once you hit 30 (but only if you're female obviously). I appreciate that other industries are different, but I can only speak from my own experience.

And yes, for me, it is a "fading" of your looks. You don't lose your youthful looks overnight. It's a gradual change.

I definitely agree that whatever it's original intent and usage was, it's now become a generic "stfu woman" response when a woman dares express an opinion.

Usually used by the same type of person who calls women terfs as well.

PlonitbatPlonit I think it's a shame that you don't make any attempt to engage with the usage of the term in the US,[....]

Agree very much with this comment. Whilst white men (and women) have appropriated the term in the UK as a lazy bit of misogyny the original describes white MC and often "liberal" women using race against black people and along the way supporting a patriarchal system.

White people in the UK may not know the origin but black people certainly did (IME) and have generally been talked over and dismissed when pointing this out (not least on MN).

'Karen' has its origins on Reddit - a misogynistic man writing about his ex-wife. It was her name. This led to a 'Fuck You, Karen' subreddit being created for similar stories.

I've been reading through the comments on JK Rowling's recent tweets and 'the K must stand for Karen' pops up quite frequently. Karen = older woman who has the audacity to disagree with men.

'Karen' has its origins on Reddit

No that is roughly when it became a common meme amongst white men (and it wasn't the first even for that use).

It was in common use at least a decade beforehand to describe white women using race and class privilege against black people.

I do know the supposed origin. It doesn't make it any better. Reducing people to a knee jerk meme isn't acceptable just because it might have first been done by black women.

I posted this on another "Karen" thread.

I would quite like MN to ban "Karen" unless a thread is actually about Karen Carpenter, Karen O, Karen Armstrong, Karen Black, Karen Gillan, Karen Elson, Karen Blixen, Karen Matheson, Karen Dalton or Karen Dotrice.

I would like to see all posts calling a woman a "Karen" deleted along with all the half- witted posts trying to justify its use.

@VeganFeminism - language wise, overuse of Karen. It's like !, popping up all the time.

And really, don't hate on those who are. I thought it was aimed at the UK?

I've never heard this insult and didn't know it was a thing until I saw it on Mumsnet and subsequently came across an article about it on Spiked which referenced a comment by Julie Bindel:

'The class hatred behind ‘Karen’-bashing

Julie Bindel is right: ‘Karen’ is a sexist, classist slur. '

www.spiked-online.com/2020/04/06/the-class-hatred-behind-karen-bashing/

That's a good article.

I would like to see all posts calling a woman a "Karen" deleted along with all the half- witted posts trying to justify its use

Mostly people are posting to point out that it has been appropriated from the original use by white people. Basically we are being told white people have appropriated it, altered its usage and to STFU.

Entire threads have been devoted to the "not all white women" and making the whole discussion about the awfulness of the use referring to it only in the white usage. They generally don't even address the actual problem of MC white women using white privilege against black people which is the root of the term.

This is exactly what men do to women with NAMALT.

Even if it had been created by black women to describe a certain type of white women (and even that doesn't seem undisputed) that does not of itself make it acceptable to reduce a group of people to a misogynistic meme.

Why was this meme only created for white women over a certain age? Where is the corresponding meme for white men who are more likely to rape or murder than simply complain to the manager?

Oh telling someone to STFU works both ways.

if it had been....

Its only been disputed by people who can't or won't be arsed to use Google.

The name wasn't a label for women of a certain age it was a label for white women using class and race privilege. As many on here have pointed out. You persist in misrepresenting the white appropriation as the "correct" meaning.

You seem unable to address the point that the use of "karen" targeting MC white women causes outcry on MN whilst the mockery of race based names generally gets a free pass, along with the bulk of dog whistle racism here. It would be nice to see just a fraction of the fuss made about the hurt feelings of white women directed at the dog whistling happening here every day.

You seem unable to address the point that the use of "karen" targeting MC white women causes outcry on MN whilst the mockery of race based names generally gets a free pass, along with the bulk of dog whistle racism here. It would be nice to see just a fraction of the fuss made about the hurt feelings of white women directed at the dog whistling happening here every day

I rarely stray out of FWR and The Archers. I very occasionally post on baby names if it comes up on "active". I haven't seen mockery of race based names but it's not a forum I'm on with any regularity.

The name wasn't a label for women of a certain age it was a label for white women using class and race privilege

You keep saying this. You seem incapable of addressing the fact it is inherently misogynistic. Where is the meme for men?

You keep saying this. You seem incapable of addressing the fact it is inherently misogynistic.

Yes because it was a fact that you and many others insist on denying.

Do women get a free pass on racism? It was specifically about MC white women using privilege against black people, often whilst self describing as liberal.

Why is it so surprising that men and women use different tactics in the context of a patriarchal society? Why the faux ignorance about the male memes? Why the whataboutery?

haven't seen mockery of race based names but it's not a forum I'm on with any regularity

"I see no ships"