New article on the UK usage of "Karen"

[VeganFeminism]

medium.com/@thisveganfeminist/get-back-in-your-box-karen-bd0c9d4c833e

Hello,

I have written an article on why I think the usage of "Karen" is problematic. I wonder if anyone could give me some feedback on it as this is my first time writing about feminism? Any comments appreciated!

Please note: I am British, and this article criticizes how Karen is typically used in the UK. I am told that the “Karen” reference has a different meaning in US English; that is not what I am referring to in this piece.

Yes, you're right SorryAuntLydia. Racism isn't at all a problem in the UK
LOL

Oh do give over. No one said that and no one interpreted that from the comment.

I get that it's mean and I wouldn't use it, however I work with someone called Karen who fits the stereotype in every way - right down to her racist slurs which she doesn't think are racist. Of course not every Karen is like this but she is like a walking meme. I could share many example of her racism, sexism, anger etc

What an utterly irrelevant point.

The term is sexist and ageist and hurtful to real life Karens no matter what context it is used in

Agreed- it has been raised several times but there's no generic slur for a racist white man- who will be likely to kill or rape rather than just give a dressing down.

Apologies if I upset anyone - was just musing I guess. This woman has been bothering me with a comment she made at work. It's been on my mind a fair bit.

We are quite capable of generating our own culturally-specific name-based slurs in the UK . . .

(Spoiler: tongue-in-cheek!)

. . . and USA-based versions just Do. Not. Travel.

UK "Karen" is nowhere near USA "Karen". Both might be stereotypically white but even that does not have the same resonance / baggage on both sides of the pond.

It just does not work.

Going back a few years, "Annabel" was a "Sloane Ranger" stereotype and "Tim Nice But Dim" her donkey-brained, braying consort.

How does that resonate in the USA??

More than anything the insistent pummelling of USA Cultural Imperialism in memes like "Karen" annoys me more than anything.

Just piss off, Yanks! Keep your classist, racist stereotypes to yourself - we demand diversity of bigotry!

And reparations for all that tea you so inconsiderately tipped into the harbour at Boston.

And proper spelling from now on, you U-phobic wazzocks!

Isn’t “Karen” also sometimes a male name in the UK? Because of our historic ties to Iran?

I've literally never in my life come across a man called Karen and I've done my fair share of call centre work!

Isn’t “Karen” also sometimes a male name in the UK? Because of our historic ties to Iran?

No. Why would it be linked to Iran? It's a Danish name and the only real foreign connection I've come across other than that is the Karen tribe in Burma.

@GNCQ I read your username as GCHQ and thought you should know if it's a male name. I've done work with statistical data for years with names on it and have never come across a Karen who is male.

Baby centre (so new Karens) has the male version at #6,738 so very rare, girl baby Karens are #1,015, much lower than the peak centred around maybe 1960?

Yeah, some men are called Karen in Iran, Armenia and from some of the Steppes region. But I don't think the name is pronounced in the same way and it isn't common. It's bugging me, but I knew a male Karen and I can't recall from where.

I'm not sure what this proves though because it is predominately a woman's name and that's how it is being used in this context.

Wikipedia, so it must be true, talks about the different origins of the male and female name. I don’t get out much but I can confirm I only know one male Karen who describes himself as Persian, and lots of female Karens.

Why do people even think it's OK to reduce people to stereotypes? So you come across a middle-aged white woman being rude. Why not just condemn the behaviour rather than use an insult based on a stereotype? Are we saying men are never rude? That black people are never rude? That young people are never rude? It seems to me to be yet another way for people to gleefully exercise their misogyny while pretending to be progressive (much like the term "Terf").

I only know one male Karen who describes himself as Persian, and lots of female Karens

How does he pronounce it? I'm sure it is different. It's really annoying me but I am sure that when I was a child I came across an adult male Karen and I am sure that he was an entertainer - but I cannot place him!

Yet I think emphasis on first syllable, rhyme with car. But Mr lastname mostly. Older person. But derailing thread because the meme was aimed at women!

Yes - that's what I remember, but with a truncated second syllable. This is going to drive me nuts until I remember who he was.

Sorry for derailing.

Karen White?

Good Lord NO! This would have been in the 70s and he was definitely not 'trans'.

I think that the meaning of 'Karen' is getting broader and broader. Recently I've seen it applied to men as well as women, and someone used it for a mixed crowd of people who were breaking social distancing laws. I guess it still carries the connotation though - you're acting like a Karen! Implies: you're acting like a middle-aged woman who doesn't know her place!

Ah! That was the only ".. adult male Karen.." I could think of.

Why do people even think it's OK to reduce people to stereotypes? So you come across a middle-aged white woman being rude. Why not just condemn the behaviour rather than use an insult based on a stereotype? Are we saying men are never rude?

That's it exactly. I suppose there is the "Kevin the teenager" syndrome but I'm not sure how far that has spread beyond the UK. Even there is still a suggestion of underlying affection for one's own particular Kevin.

That black people are never rude?

There is certainly at least one MNetter who seems to labour under the delusion it's not possible.

Why do people even think it's OK to reduce people to stereotypes? So you come across a middle-aged white woman being rude. Why not just condemn the behaviour rather than use an insult based on a stereotype?

Exactly. Yet people are doing it, I've seen it done on MN this week, though never in person. Those keyboard warriors who think it's ok to be downright rude because they are anonymous.

I think there is a difference between the US and the UK in terms of how the meme is used. Of course there is racism here in the UK, but the 'Karen' stereotype is used more to mean somebody out of touch (just as Mary Whitehouse used to be referenced), rather than racist, like 'OK Boomer'.

Here, I would say that the whole Karen thing has been adapted to particular national circumstances, and rather than calling out racism, it has taken on a kind of insidious misogyny and ageism, which is not as 'woke' as the people using it seem to think it is. Dismissing the views of middle-aged women is hardly a radical new thing.

It's actually very close in meaning and intention to the way Mumsnet is referenced in the press and popular culture, now I think about it. Sneering and dismissive.

Yesterday I commented on a thread in a local Fb group on wildlife. The OP was ranting offensively about ALL runners, instead of about the one runner whose mere presence had pissed him off earlier that morning.

I was utterly polite, empathetic about his frustration, but asked him not to generalise, as his language was offensive. Offensive. Not that I was offended; offensive.

A bearded dude bro immediately leapt in by posting a horribly caricatured Karen meme, posting, "oooh! She's OFFENDED"!

No engagement. Just a way to try and silence me out of a group.

I completely ignored it - as did everyone else - and the post was eventually pulled as the OP's rants reached the point at which he felt that running was an utterly inappropriate activity for anyone in lockdown, because ALL runners were intimidating. It was wrong to place the emotional well being of anyone over his need to feel safe... etc. I'm pretty sure that I wasn't being the unreasonable one there, but beardy dude bro couldn't wait to leap on an older woman expressing an opinion on the internet.

Lemonsole - every time I have seen it used, which has only been by men in the UK and never in relation to anything to do with racism there was not even an "age thing". It was simply:

Karen: "a woman expressing an opinion on the internet that I disagree with."

ie. "Just STFU, woman!"