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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Daily Mail article M&S, Liz Truss, Pushback!

96 replies

BovaryX · 24/05/2020 07:29

There is a prominent article in the Daily Mail which states M&S' policy of allowing changing room access to natal males is being criticised. It quotes Liz Truss, cites Baroness Nicholson and gives a concise overview of the issues. This is hopefully indicative of a paradigm shift where the rights of women and girls to sex segregated spaces are going to be upheld. Pushback!
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8351127/Marks-Spencers-transgender-policy-puts-women-girls-risk-voyeurs-say-campaigners.html

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/05/2020 11:57

YY, MrsHunt

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/05/2020 11:58

Liz Truss appears to have told the trans lobby that the GRA reform won't harm them, but the same time committing to single sex spaces for women. That's not something that can happen

I agree, although I think the word 'harm' is the thing that needs in depth debating here, because it's the usual dramatic hyperbole hiding the banality of the facts. Are males really being 'harmed' when spaces are ringfenced for female people that those males are not permitted to enter? Particularly if gender neutral additional spaces are created at the same time as an alternative for privacy, safety and dignity concerns for males not wishing to use male spaces? (Ignoring the whole why don't we teach males to be tolerant to other males bit.)

It does not 'harm' males for a country to recognise and meet the needs of humans born female. It does not 'harm' males to provide spaces for said females where those males may not go. That perceived 'harm' needs unpacking and the guts to be found to say no, not liking it isn't harm. Being angry and upset you aren't being allowed to stomp all over other people's rights and needs is not you being 'harmed'. The word 'no' is not harming you.

Third ways that meet everybody's needs is the only possible way forward.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/05/2020 12:01

Oh and I skipped right over the whole 'harm' being one way only.

'Harmed' by being refused entry to a female only single sex space. Oh the horror, the inhumanity of it all.

But those females in that single sex space - their needs, feelings, that some of them could no longer use that space at all - that's not harm, that's just appalling behaviour that shouldn't be tolerated.

'Harm' is something appalling that males suffer when females say no. It's never permitted to be something females suffer when males get their own way regardless of the evidence.

OvaHere · 24/05/2020 12:22

'Harm' is something appalling that males suffer when females say no. It's never permitted to be something females suffer when males get their own way regardless of the evidence.

THIS

Datun · 24/05/2020 12:27

Agree. Although, to be absolutely clear, I'm not sure she actually used the word harm. That was me paraphrasing. But it was something along the lines of the reform not being negative for trans people. Whilst simultaneously telling women sex segregation would be upheld.

I have idea how she is not going to look like a liar, or deliberately disingenuous.

Demanding access to women is not a right. And it's been seen as entitlement for far too long. And it is access to women. The physical space is irrelevant. If the women weren't in there, it would not be desirable. Women are being used, over and over.

I'm really glad the Daily Mail has quoted Liz Truss. It's out there now.

And I can totally see the board at Marks & Spencers thinking that the pushback to mixed sex changing rooms is from a minority, and most people don't care. So why create waves?

The thing is, now many, many more people will know.

I bet they still won't equate loss of business with this, though. There seems to be a blindspot. Perhaps it's the same blindspot that means people don't listen to women at the best of times.

Even if they are utterly reliant on them for their entire business.

Shedbuilder · 24/05/2020 12:31

*Many high end charity jobs draw from a very incestuous pool of extreme end liberal types who just periodically all change seats, there's very little new blood in and no introduction of new and different thought, it just concentrates the lunacy more strongly.

Many high end county council and government posts from team managers upwards are run by the same type with the same beliefs who only recruit those who think as they do. They all occasionally swap jobs with the high end charity people.*

You're so right, Michelle. I know someone who has gone from being on the senior management team of the county council to the senior management team of Barnardos. She has her sights on NHS management next, apparently. Woke as hell and 'revolutionises' everywhere she goes (ie, destroys women's rights).

These people aren't just going to go away, even if legislation changes, the GRA is abolished and women's rights are strengthened. They'll still be there. What does one do with the thousands of woke managers, doctors, social workers, teachers etc who not only believe this trans-woo but have been active in steamrollering women's rights?

Aesopfable · 24/05/2020 12:33

I still remain to be convinced that Truss isn't trying to please both sides by saying single sex spaces for women and girls will be protected, while actually meaning 'but anyone of any sex can be a woman or girl'

I agree but the more it is held up as a commitment to actual women and girls in public the harder it will be for them to say ‘but we didn’t actually mean that, we meant women, girls and any man who wants to call himself a girl’.

Goopamz · 24/05/2020 12:36

Every stonewalled org and workplace has this policy. No need to transition - use whatever facilities you want. I know my managers wouldnt be happy with a male person using the ladies, but tbh i'm not sure they are even aware of the policy. It was brought in totally under the radar. I think HR just do it for the stonewall points and hope the situation never arises, which to me seems more discriminatory (ie hoping no-one transitions) than having a fair policy in the first place

Aesopfable · 24/05/2020 12:38

I bet they still won't equate loss of business with this, though

The loss to business from this will be dwarfed by the impact of the Corona virus lockdown. But if they wish to recover, they will find it harder without their core market.

Gurning · 24/05/2020 12:41

Demanding access to women is not a right. And it's been seen as entitlement for far too long. And it is access to women. The physical space is irrelevant. If the women weren't in there, it would not be desirable. Women are being used, over and over.

So. Fucking. True.

It's not enough when they are offered their own private room, it has to include women, or at least the chance of women entering.
Seeing, and being seen by women IS the desire they have. And it's wrong.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/05/2020 12:42

And it is access to women.

This. I have been deleted before for saying this too plainly, so just consider for yourselves. Is it the woman's mind that access is wanted to? Her personality? Her choices, her preferences, her lived experience? Her emotions and her authentic self? Her consent? What's left to demand access to when none of that is relevant?

At what point does 'access to' become 'making use of', when that other person has not been asked for consent?

Shed that's my experience too. What will have to happen is that gradually this group of 'revolutionisers' will start to be seen as out of date and silly. I'm thinking of a particular highflier who was famously sent in to sort out a county council and huge amounts of money and training was invested in widely publicised themes of 'tasting the strawberry' and 'getting on the bus' and 'layers of the onion' and where each worker was 'on the windscreen' and other once fashionable and avante guard stuff that was seen through as ridiculous and plain silly wankery on their watch. I believe they were quietly given a golden handshake and sent to be ridiculous in another county, the whole thing became a complete national embarrassment.

Aesop that is true. It's raising awareness. I've just become bitterly cynical after several years of watching all this anti woman bullshit in action.

TedsFederationRep · 24/05/2020 12:43

From that M&S link:

"To Kelly’s delight, the evening was a huge success, so she arranged another visit. “This time, some of the group modelled for me. They loved it and I was made to feel so welcome. After the meeting, many came for a bra fitting and one of the group specially brought their partner along for a new bra."

Of course they did, Kelly love. And one day, when you understand why, you'll be mortified.

You may even be doubly mortified that you realise how you opened the door and facilitated a situation where non-consenting women and girls were used as audience participation.

ShinyFootball · 24/05/2020 12:55

From the inclusion piece:

'This time, some of the group modelled for me. They loved it and I was made to feel so welcome. After the meeting, many came for a bra fitting and one of the group specially brought their partner along for a new bra'

Erm...

Datun · 24/05/2020 13:02

Bloody hell. Are the Marks & Spencer's lingerie changing rooms a hook up site for threesomes now?

OvaHere · 24/05/2020 13:04

There's been so much publicity about period poverty recently. Presumably young girls who don't have access to adequate sanitary protection also don't get bra fittings or quality training bras.

Why not run a campaign to tie in with that? Offer a first bra free for low income families, do a range of period wear and tie it in with awareness for period poverty.

That's the sort of charity and awareness I expect from a leading women's lingerie chain. Not indulging the F word behaviour in males.

GCGayDad · 24/05/2020 13:14

On Dominic Cummings

@BovaryX @Needmoresleep

I think the battle for Cummings is really important. It is a proxy for the fight for control of policy making between a liberal elite and a populist

OMG no! Shock I know we have to form some strange alliances in this campaign, but Cummings is a revolting, despicable, propagandising extremist who has been given the power by a lazy, morals-free charlatan to run the country.

See all of these articles below, covering issues mainly separate from the latest lockdown debacle:

cabinetofhorrors.org/dominic-cummings/

“The announcement that Boris Johnson was appointing Dominic Cummings as his senior adviser was met with a mix of incredulity and horror, at Westminster and beyond.

“Described by David Cameron as a ‘career psychopath’, Cummings is seen as a toxic figure by many that he has worked with. As the Campaign Director for Vote Leave, he is also the subject of an ongoing police investigation and has been held in contempt of Parliament for refusing to give evidence to a parliamentary committee investigating disinformation and other abuses of the electoral process. Some MPs were so disgusted by his elevation to a key role in government that they demanded his parliamentary pass and security clearance be rescinded.

“To many, this appointment signalled Johnson’s intention to use any methods, no matter how dubious, to win an upcoming election. And if it’s dubious electoral methods you’re after, Cummings is your go-to guy.

“It was Cummings who worked hand in glove with Cambridge Analytica’s sister company AIQ to flood voters’ Facebook timelines and inboxes with 1.5 billion ads in the final days before the 2016 referendum. Each of these was carefully calibrated to push particular buttons with individual voters, using psychological profiling and targeting techniques developed by Cambridge Analytica. Cummings was so proud of this achievement that he boasted about it at length at an advertising industry convention (omitting to mention that Vote Leave had illegally breached its spending limit in order to do this, for which it was later fined £61,000 by the Electoral Commission).

“This was not the only way in which Cummings had been central to this fraudulent campaign. It was he who came up with the ‘Take Back Control’ slogan for Vote Leave – brilliantly crafted to appeal to voters who felt they had lost control of their lives after a decade of devastating austerity cuts. And it was Cummings who devised the infamous lie on the Brexit battle bus: ‘We send the EU £350 million a week, let’s fund our NHS instead.’ He later admitted that the campaign could not have won without it.

“Cummings is well aware that most people who voted for Brexit did so for reasons that had little to do with the European Union: “I think we voted to leave because so many British people had been left behind economically and culturally for so long, and were furious about it; and because, from the 2008 financial crisis onwards, they had accumulated so much contempt for the political elites.”

“For Cummings, it appears that any lie is acceptable if it succeeds in manipulating voters – many of whom he regards as ‘genetically inferior’ (Cummings is nothing if not an elitist, with undisguised contempt for those that he considers less intelligent than himself). Amongst the falsehoods that appeared on individual users’ Facebook feeds were claims such as ‘The EU blocks our ability to speak out and protect polar bears’, ‘The EU wants to kill our cuppa’ and ‘The UK’s new borders are with Syria and Iraq’. All completely untrue, but the advantage of ‘dark ads’ such as these is that they do not have to be held up to wider scrutiny of the sort that might expose their falsity.

“Cummings has been keen to dissociate Vote Leave from the obvious racism and xenophobia of Nigel Farage and Leave.EU. But this is more about public perception than principle: Many of Vote Leave’s targeted ads pushed just the same racist buttons as Farage’s infamous ‘Breaking Point’ poster.

“As Johnson’s most senior adviser, Cummings has been given extraordinary power over the processes of government. One of his first steps was to address a meeting of other ‘spads’ (special advisers) to impress on them that their primary duty was to deliver Brexit ‘by any means necessary’ and that they, rather than ministers, ‘should be the real driving force behind everything the government does’, owing their loyalty directly to Johnson and his team (led by Cummings). He has also ‘joked’ that civil servants who are insufficiently enthusiastic about Brexit should be ‘purged’. [He has since does this, most famously by frogmarching Sajid Javid’s assistant out of a meeting and firing her with no consultation or procedures followed.] Ideological purges of the civil service have typically been among the first moves of incoming autocrats, from Hitler to Erdogan, and Cummings’ record suggests that we would be unwise to dismiss these remarks as a joke.

“A power structure in which unelected advisers are calling the shots also smacks of the methods of an authoritarian state rather than those of an accountable parliamentary democracy. But then Cummings is on record expressing his contempt for parliament and the civil service, as for so much else: ‘MPs have proved they can’t be trusted… The rotten civil service will be destroyed.’

“No Cabinet of Horrors would be complete without its Dr Frankenstein, and Dominic Cummings fits that role to a tee.”

He was also instrumental in outing a vulnerable young gay man to the press (hand in glove with Michael Gove and others):
twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/977855805885177856?s=20

He also has vile views on eugenics: inews.co.uk/news/dominic-cummings-controversies-lockdown-genetics-contempt-of-parliament-brexit-2863119

“In February this year it emerged Mr Cummings wrote a blog in 2014 calling for the NHS to provide funding to allow people to select genetic traits such as intelligence for babies.

He wrote: "Once we identify a substantial number of IQ genes, there is no obvious reason why rich people will not select the egg that has the highest prediction for IQ."

He’s also utterly contemptuous of openness, transparency and the FoI Act in particular - something of vital importance in the campaign against regulatory capture by Stonewall, Mermaids etc.: bylinetimes.com/2020/05/23/ruling-from-the-shadows-why-dominic-cummings-poses-a-threat-to-the-country/


And for a view from a right-of-Centre, pro-Brexit source, a person who worked with Cummings on the Leave campaign, see Dr Richard North. In multiple blog posts, North has documented how Cummings has constantly pushed for the most extremist Brexit possible, which will destroy the country’s economy irredeemably. See for example:

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86543

“This is a man who himself is wedded to underhand dealing and back-stabbing, in which he excels. He is the man who went out of his way to exclude outside expertise from the leave campaign. [...]

“In terms of grand strategy. Cummings has played it wrong at every level. Far from the "genius" that the bubble would have him be, he is a serial blunderer.”

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/05/2020 13:23

I agree but the more it is held up as a commitment to actual women and girls in public the harder it will be for them to say ‘but we didn’t actually mean that, we meant women, girls and any man who wants to call himself a girl’.

Yes, I think that time has passed.

BovaryX · 24/05/2020 13:45

but Cummings is a revolting, despicable, propagandising extremist who has been given the power by a lazy, morals-free charlatan to run the country

Sorry, but this kind of Manichean denunciation does not make a convincing argument.

OP posts:
GCGayDad · 24/05/2020 13:48

Sorry, but this kind of Manichean denunciation does not make a convincing argument.

That’s why I took considerable time to back up my point with a number of articles detailing what Cummings is like and what he has done. If you still want to support him in spite of all the evidence, well that’s up to you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/05/2020 13:52

Whether or not someone does or does not support Dominic Cummings has very little relevance to this issue. Let's not get distracted.

TedsFederationRep · 24/05/2020 13:59

Let's not get distracted.

I agree.

I have been boycotting M&S steadfastly since the beginning of November 2019 over this issue and, like so many others, have written and emailed to no effect. This a matter that transcends political differences.

Needmoresleep · 24/05/2020 14:03

GCgaydad, I did not claim that Cummings was sweetness and light.

However many many people are bruised by being called racist for wanting to leave the EU, many people are bruised by being labelled transphobic, and on and on.

There is a very unappealing totalitarianism that has taken hold of left leaning liberals. And it is self perpetuating as University lecturers, charity trustees, M&S Directors, senior civil servants and many more have learned that it can be dangerous to speak out. So there has been a cloning of views, which at times are increasingly removed from common sense.

I am happy to accept that Cummings is pretty unpleasant. He is a disruptor, a sort of wrecking ball, who could cause a lot of damage. But equally the left leaning policy making class do not get it.

It was not just Labour voters who hesitated before voting for Boris. Corbyn was worse, but that did not make Boris particularly appealing. The only hope was that at least Boris/Cummings appeared to be listening to people's concerns rather than tell them what they should be thinking/accepting.

The other hope is that people, like the good Baroness, like Liz Truss, like the many who remained silent, will now feel able to speak out. And that it will become clear that good politics come from respecting the will of the people.

My impression is that the DM is heading that way. Reading their reporting, my take was that they don't want Cummings to be destroyed by the left, but they don't mind him having his wings clipped significantly. And were quick to report on the fact that many within the Tories are pretty appalled as well.

BovaryX · 24/05/2020 14:07

Let's not get distracted

This is a matter that transcends political differences

Eresh and Teds

Totally agree. Hopefully, it will be harder for Liz Truss to do some semantic reversal on what she means if this continues to get publicity. I also think that using consumer power is a great response. M&S should understand there are economic consequences to chucking their core consumers under the bus.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 24/05/2020 14:11

Sorry Eresh. Cross posted. I had been tagged so felt the need to reply.

Policies are policies not people. Too much on this board is about PP not being very nice, or Caro not being very nice, or Rosa, or the good Baroness, or at least half a dozen others. We have had David Davis MP being a Tory, The Mail being a rag and so on.

I will listen, I won't necessarily agree, I might even review my own opinion. But on policies. I don't give a stuff about whether the M&S bloke is nice or not. I am astonished that he is not capable of thinking for himself and needs Stonewall to tell him that women, his primary market dont mind self-IDing men in their changing rooms.

Niceness is great in a lot of circumstances but it can be overrated. I am particularly sick of men making decisions then telling women off for not being nice.

SisyphusLangClegRocks · 24/05/2020 14:13

Am I the only one who thinks Archie becomes Anthea on a weekend?

Daily Mail article M&S, Liz Truss, Pushback!
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