Which changing rooms, bathrooms, showers, dorms etc should trans men use? Haddocks ultimate gotcha question

[happydappy2]

AH on twitter presents a photo of a topless transman who passes well as a man-questioning which bathroom should this person use? I just wondered what other people feel about this? Personally I think trans men should use the mens facilities where it is safe to do so-ie most of the time, but not be in prison with men because of the clear risk of rape. They clearly do not pose the same safeguarding risk to men, as males do to women.

The ultimate question for Haddock is “would you have sex with a transman?”
Of course we know the answer - “God no! Women are disgusting” - because he let it slip before he realised that this was against trans ideology, went very quiet and never mentioned it again

I'm fed up of this.
Men are not a threat because they look like men.
They are a threat because they have a penis they can rape with, can easily overpower most women because they are on average bigger and stronger, and they have been bought up in a culture that encourages some men to be entitled around sex and fetishes.
I couldn't care less if a TM used the ladies or the gents, up to them

I want to retain an option to get rid of a male who makes me uncomfortable from a female space. Regardless of if they "pass" as female or not.

Honestly. What risk does a TM using male facilities pose to men? Haddock is a wanker

Biological women should use the womens.
Biological men should use the mens.

No safeguarding risk. They're female. Females welcome and support other females. Females have been perfectly used to very butch females for decades and decades. However if you've changed your body to something that may cause others concern whether that's walking into a female only loo with a three foot beard or cat whiskers and a tail, then you're going to have to think about how you do it to avoid causing alarm or yourself embarrassment.

Or, since many TM say they don't want to use female spaces, third spaces are needed. Third spaces are the answer. Fourth spaces. Seventh spaces. All the spaces wanted. Just no to males ever being in female only spaces, and no males having cake and eating cake at the same time. It's not complicated.

beebeeduck if a woman has been on T for years, had a double mastectomy, bearded face, so looks and sounds like man-should they really be changing for swimming in the womens? Wouldn't that be very scary for young children?

Men are not a threat because they look like men.
They are a threat because they have a penis they can rape with, can easily overpower most women because they are on average bigger and stronger, and they have been bought up in a culture that encourages some men to be entitled around sex and fetishes.
I couldn't care less if a TM used the ladies or the gents, up to them

Yep.

If Haddock is the model for inclusiveness why doesn't he launch into making men and men's spaces the most fantastically welcoming for all males and all those who identify as males? Plus third and private spaces as additional choices? Why not set the example he wishes women to follow?

Could it possibly be because Haddock's only interest here is trying to coerce and stomp on female boundaries?

You're right, Michelle, that third spaces will remove all of these issues. So that's what we need.

Are they a biological man?
Yes - men’s facilities
No - women’s facilities
Not hard is it?

We have sex-segregated facilities for two reasons.

1. Privacy. This applies to both males and females.

1. Safety. This is relevant to females. Males are responsible for most acts of violence. Their victims include other adult males, adult females, children of both sexes. The victims of sexual crimes are disproportionately female and almost all sexual crimes are committed by males. Most males are physically stronger than most females and obviously far stronger than children. Hence the reason for females to have places where males cannot go when the females are in a vulnerable state, e.g having to use the loo or getting dressed/undressed.

Transmen are female. They pose no threat to the safety of males. Hence it's their own decision which loos and changing rooms to use. Biological males may have a view about whether they like transmen using male facilities because of the privacy aspect. Transmen will have to think of their own safety if they make themselves vulnerable in a male-dominated space.

It's a totally different argument when it comes to transwomen using female facilities because of the safety aspect. (a) There's no evidence that transwomen have a lower rate of male pattern violence than any other males. (b) As there is no requirement for transwomen to have any medical treatment or indeed do anything to ID as women other than assert that it's their gender identity, it's impossible for females to be able to recognise on sight who is a transwoman and who is a male entering a female-only space with nefarious intent.

They bring this up to try and distract from the real issue of transwomen in women’s spaces. This is very much a non issue and not at all equivalent. I’m not meaning to criticise the op for opening up discussion but be aware that it is intended to stop us discussing the issue that matters.

This isn't the GOTCHA he thinks it is.

Alex Drummond (for example) looks very much like a man - which loos should he use, Adrian?

Bearing in mind that the vast majority of transwomen still very much look like men, and besides it's transphobic to judge a person who is trans on their appearance. So which one is it?

Transmen are my sisters, and I welcome every woman that has detransitioned, or reidentified, or just realised that she is female and always will be.

I think that women that have been masculinised through testosterone use, and possibly through cosmetic surgery, have some really difficult decisions to make, regarding which changing room to use. Their response to this is going to depend on many things, including any ongoing presentation differences (is she keeping her facial hair? Does her body now more closely resemble a male body, in terms of secondary sexual characteristics?) We don’t prevent women that have had double mastectomy from using women’s changing rooms, so surgical changes aren’t the defining factor.

They are at risk in the men’s facilities, and if the men realise that they are female, they can be raped, risking pregnancy and lifelong implications. If they use female changing rooms, they can terrify women using those changing rooms, who may assume they are men.

If re-identified women are likely to be able to use the women’s changing room without alarming other women, then there is no issue. That’s where they can go. It’s more complex for the medicalised/surgically changed women.

I believe we are going to have to ensure that third-space provision is available. Whether that’s a ‘unisex’ space, an individual cubicle, or in extremis, the Accessible Toilet.

This is the only way I can see us providing a space that is safe for every woman, including ones with masculinised secondary sexual characteristics.

Also, he should ask men if they mind a transman in their loos/prisons/changing rooms/gay saunas. I suspect the answer would very much depend on the context there too.

I imagine most trans men who have had body modifications to look obviously male, wouldn't want to use the womens as they would understand how that would make women and children feel vulnerable-would be interesting to hear from any trans men on this.

I agree, Deploy

This consideration should never be used to try and leverage away the right of female people to female only spaces, which is all this is ever about. Women want AND. Additional spaces. More choices. The political lobby seek deletion. They want women's spaces and the right to control them, and females legally prevented from privacy or separation from males, females must never be allowed anything of their own. This kind of special pleading is only ever trotted out by males to seek that very male serving aim.

Prisons - clear cut, to my mind. No males in female prisons. Transmen stay in female prison, transwomen stay in male prisons, in separate wing if necessary. Far too risk for all the females concerned to do otherwise.

The usual answer is we'd rather challenge a female transsexual in female spaces than allow actual men to go unquestioned. Some transmen and detransitioners do use the mens loo as they don't want to make women uncomfortable, thats up to them and the men may be none the wiser. Its for men to speak out if they object. Obviously we wouldn't contemplate puting them in a male prison for obvious reasons.

What I want to know is why it has all gone back to toilets again?

Accepting the reality that many transmen do pass quite well then that's a question for them and the men using male toilets.

On an individual basis if they use the ladies then they will be questioned... will cause some consternation, just like the majority of transwomen do.

Haddock can fuck off with his supposed gotchas. I don't have to be logical for him. I don't have to do his thinking for him.

Bear in mind that most girls' schools allow girls who no longer identify as such to stay, while Girlguiding had to be pushed into saying they could.
Women, on the other hand, have to hold the gender identity of a woman to be leaders.
So it's not just toilets etc - which are a short stay facility so to speak. Young women who've grown up in a girls' movement are being told they have to leave a place of safety and support.

Agreed: I would hope that HMG would NEVER fail in the safeguarding of a female inmate by confining her with Male persons. That means zero ‘transmen’ in Male prisons, and of course, zero ‘transwomen’ in female prisons.

This is why I think the GRA must be looked at again. Where a bloke has a GRC, and changes his birth certificate to read that he was a female baby, we have no way of keeping him out of a female prison, (other than risk assessment).

We need to abolish the GRA and re-call all the false birth certificates and GRCs (only 5000, after all) and officialdom has to recognise that sex is a permanent feature.

Honestly, why does anyone give this ridiculous man the time of day anymore. Can't we just ignore him now?

The gents. The idea of 'ladies' toilets was to give females privacy and to keep them safe from interference from males. So gents are the default NOT ladies. Let everyone who isn't an actual female go there. Problem solved!

The photos posted by Harrop are of people who have recently had the surgery and are being photographed under favorable lighting. This is why they "pass".

In a years' time, under normal light, they won't pass. The uncanny valley effect is just too strong.