Which changing rooms, bathrooms, showers, dorms etc should trans men use? Haddocks ultimate gotcha question

[happydappy2]

AH on twitter presents a photo of a topless transman who passes well as a man-questioning which bathroom should this person use? I just wondered what other people feel about this? Personally I think trans men should use the mens facilities where it is safe to do so-ie most of the time, but not be in prison with men because of the clear risk of rape. They clearly do not pose the same safeguarding risk to men, as males do to women.

I wanted to add that since he doesn't want to be female, he should use the gents. The point is that, if in doubt, use the default toilet e.g. the gents.

I don't care which facilitates transmen use. They are not the same threat to men that men are to women. If they want to use the male facilities then that issue is between men and transmen to sort out. I only care about sex segregated space for women. Biological women. And born males should not be using women's spaces because they are sex segregated, not gender segregated. The 'what about the transmen' only gets rolled out by activists in order to support males using female sex segregated provision. The risks are not the same and if men have a problem with it then they should speak up, just like women do when their spaces are being infiltrated.

I too don't really care that much. Most transmen don't pass in real life.

If they do, they'll get challenged, just like men. I'm sure they would expect it, otherwise what's the point?

I can totally see a future where it settles down to transmen who don't pass using the ladies and transmen who do using the gents. And it being perfectly acceptable.

But yes, of course, a third space would be the answer to all these attempts to force women into accepting men in their spaces.

As if Harrop, or any TRA, has the slightest interest in transmen. 🙄

*photo of topless transman who passes well as a man”

Because we know photos are always a true reflection of reality.

I think the reason that people like Harrop ask this is because there isn't really a "right" answer.

In an ideal world trans men would use the ladies. Or - in an even more ideal world, we would have better options available for sex dysphoria than medical transition.

In the real world, there are some trans men who appear to be men, and in some women's toilets or change rooms this could cause a problem. I can easily imagine for example a parent being quite upset about seeing such a person go into a facility after their young daughter.

I also don't think it's necessarily appropriate to go into men's facilities, men are allowed privacy too. This might be more of an issue in a change room than a toilet.

A single toilet would probably be best in that instance but they aren't always available.

Because we know photos are always a true reflection of reality.

There are invariably five foot nothing. The photo of Whittle standing next to Jenner is a classic of the genre.

The photos posted by Harrop are of people who have recently had the surgery and are being photographed under favorable lighting. This is why they "pass". In a years' time, under normal light, they won't pass. The uncanny valley effect is just too strong.

In my experience quite a few trans men pass, and often more so as they get older.

I am sure I remember reading a blog by a transman about the difficulty in maintaining a musculature physique once out of their 20s and how they felt this was necessary to look like a man. Certainly without it the individual in Harrop’s photo, even so carefully staged would look more feminine with narrow shoulders.

In my experience quite a few trans men pass, and often more so as they get older

I wonder if it more that they don’t jar with us a much as transwomen so we don’t need to ‘look again’; females don’t represent a threat to other women in the same way. Also things like smell don’t stand out as different from women in the way male smell does in transwomen.

I don't care which facilitates transmen use. They are not the same threat to men that men are to women. If they want to use the male facilities then that issue is between men and transmen to sort out. I only care about sex segregated space for women.

Exactly this. I don't care, and it's not my problem to sort out. Why are we always being asked to sort out trans people's problems for them? If a trans man wants to use the men's toilets, then fine, let them. If they want to use the women's, also fine, but if they pass, they might get challenged. Not my problem.

AH on twitter presents a photo of a topless transman who passes well as a man-questioning which bathroom should this person use?

Does he object to such a person using the men's? If so, why?

Ultimately, it's written in law, EA2010, it's there in black and white, transwomen can be lawfully excluded from women's spaces, (proportionate and legitimate reasons etc) and transmen can also be lawfully excluded from women's spaces on the basis of their male appearance.(proportionate and legitimate reasons etc).

Trans activists like Harrop should focus on finding spaces for transpeople. Why is it they don't do that?

There seems to be this issue that challenging someone is something you must not, can not, ever do. It's a heinous crime.

Well, no, not really. Why can't women challenge people who they think are men in their space? And if they're wrong, they're wrong. If a transman has gone out of their way to look like a man, they would expect nothing else.

The reason TRAs think it's a gotcha, is because they don't think women would or should challenge.

Too bad.

Gncq good point-the more this plays out it does seem to be all about eroding womens boundries, which are in place for safeguarding.

What I want to know is why it has all gone back to toilets again?
Because it's much easier to portray us as being unreasonable and hysterical about a space with a lockable door that all humans need to use. Rather than talk about more sensitive spaces (women communal changing rooms at gyms for example, smear tests, rape centres, girls shared dorms on school trips).
It's designed to stop critical thinking but is the top of a very slippery slope.

That's such an important point QuentinWinters
Haddock demanding that he or another male must be allowed to give an unwilling woman a smear test or shower next to her or share a hospital ward with her rather exposes a certain motivation. That's why toilets are such a useful screen for these sinister demands.

Haddock's Ultimate Gotcha is in contravention of the EA2010.

Barring transmen from women's facilities is discriminating against them on the grounds of gender reassignment.

He can fuck right off.

And I do wish he'd stop only presenting half of the question.

If you had to choose, would you rather share your female-only spaces with our theoretical transman, or with Alex Drummond?

No contest.

Toilets are a question of plumbing.

Which one you use depends on your personal plumbing and the location of the facilities designed to accomodate it.

I don't mind.

Transmen are not a threat to me, my daughters, my friends or other female relatives.

Next.

beebeeduck if a woman has been on T for years, had a double mastectomy, bearded face, so looks and sounds like man-should they really be changing for swimming in the womens? Wouldn't that be very scary for young children?

If a woman has had a mastectomy then she is still a woman. To say otherwise would be an insult to women who have had one due to cancer/the risk of cancer.

If we, as women, say that trans women should not go in the womens changing rooms then we can't say that trans man should go in the mens changing rooms. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Brilliant point: I hadn’t considered this!

Butch lesbians report being challenged by women in single-sex facilities, often. These women tend to deal with this challenge in a very understanding way, because as women, they understand the fears that all women share die to our biological vulnerability to men.

Are ‘transmen’ likely to react similarly?

It’s only these histrionic men that wilt at the smallest hint that a stranger refuses to participate in their public fetish.

"Privilege is when you think something is not a problem because it doesn't affect you."

Men like AH will never understand why women prefer single sex facilities and they doesn't need to which is why they can trivialise our concerns.

AH cares as much about transmen as he does for any woman, hes a contemptable troll

If we, as women, say that trans women should not go in the womens changing rooms then we can't say that trans man should go in the mens changing rooms. You can't have your cake and eat it

You can't "force" either TW or TM into the men's space, but you can legitimately ask for both TM or TW to leave a woman-only space in circumstances, it's actually completely lawful.

Where they go is surely up to trans rights activists, not feminists.