Which changing rooms, bathrooms, showers, dorms etc should trans men use? Haddocks ultimate gotcha question

[happydappy2]

AH on twitter presents a photo of a topless transman who passes well as a man-questioning which bathroom should this person use? I just wondered what other people feel about this? Personally I think trans men should use the mens facilities where it is safe to do so-ie most of the time, but not be in prison with men because of the clear risk of rape. They clearly do not pose the same safeguarding risk to men, as males do to women.

So, again, Buck Angel is always brought up in these conversations. Most transmen do not end up looking like that. Even if they did the reality of the situation would be obvious the moment they removed their pants, if not before. As Shakira said, hips don't lie.

I'm waiting for a naked picture of the bottom half of a transwoman and his question as to what toilet the transwoman should use. But due to the minority of transwomen who get their penis removed, it wouldn't work as a 'gotcha' at all. The man is an idiot

I find it odd that during one of the worst medical pandemics of all time, an NHS doctor has nothing better to do than argue on Twitter about why women should lose their rights.

What I don't understand is what some women looking convincing as men has to do with actual men going into women's loos?

He's trying to show that women are being inconsistent in their position.

Either they are accepting that a person who looks like a man can come into the women's toilets just like a transwomen can go into the mens.

Or we say transmen who pass can go in the mens and we seem to be ignoring men's right to single sex spaces, and that it is not unsafe for them there.

He figures that either way it looks bad.

I suppose this is the problem with Drs telling women that they can 'be men', in an ideal world women would be happy in their bodies & just live their lives....the multiple reasons women reject their bodies and wish to be perceived as men are vastly different to the 2 reasons men reject their bodies and wish to be perceived as women. I only started this thread as the wonderful Baronness was tweeted by AH, and I thought it would be interesting to get other points of view-primarily to help her-I agree the peculiar Dr has a weird fixation on not allowing women to undress away from men, which is very illuminating. Thanks for all the input

So no man has ever been abused by a woman? Why are there domestic violence charities for male victims of domestic abuse by females?

Men are not physically abused by women in toilets.

Men are not physically abused by women in toilets

Or sexually.

No way on this earth would a woman self identify as a man and go into a toilet an 'up-pant' a man to look at his balls.

Would. not. Happen. Ever.

Have any women ever hidden cameras in men's toilets? I haven't heard of it.

How is it a "gotcha"? It is the biggest own goal I have ever seen. If his argument is that they should use the men's, because they look like men, well then, most transwomen should too, since they, too, look like men.

It’s another example of misogynistic men like Harrop using women to promote their own agenda.

On the one hand there’s pleas to be Be Kind and accusations of TERFdom if women don’t let me enter their changing spaces.

In this instance transmen are used to promote a general trans agenda - that men should be allowed free access to women’s toilets.

This doesn’t even seem to be an actual issue IRL. Where are the tweets and articles and protests demanding women be allowed access into the men’s? Where are the pictures of women in the men’s brandishing swords and hoping for condom chat at the urinal?

Transmen don’t pose a threat to other women like men do, it’s just more whataboutism.

I suppose this is the problem with Drs telling women that they can 'be men'

Yeah, I think the problem is really with the assumptions behind the question, which is it has to be one or the other.

You could make a not-crazy argument that someone who goes all the way with transition (not necessarily all the surgery but not nb folks or genderqueer or people who don't bother to get a GRC) is essentially a medical category that counts as a disability, and should be treated as such in terms of facilities.

All this proves is that Harrop is completely unaware of the actual points being put forward by women. Lots of telling women why they are wrong, but not so much actually listening to those women. And they call us bigots.

I mean it’s not hard

Anyone who looks like a man shouldn’t go into women’s private spaces, because those spaces were created specifically because men attack women when women are vulnerable.

This was obvious to literally everyone including transexual males and females until 10 years ago.

So, yes. If a female person has transitioned to the point they have a beard and 100% pass as male they should not use the women’s spaces to avoid making other female people uncomfortable because they will be mistaken for a male person. Similarly, the 98% of trans women who still look male to at least some people should not use women’s spaces.

Third spaces would help if the trans community were willing to use them.

The other thing is, the answer is not going to be the same for all settings. The toilet facilities in a small office are not the same as a hospital ward, an open set of pool showers, or a prison, or a youth hostel dorm.

I spoke to a TIF who still used women’s toilets and said it was because they didn’t feel safe in the men’s. I’m sure they wouldn’t be the only one.

I see Harrop has chosen a photograph that doesn’t show the mastectomy scars that this person has in other topless photos. Typical dishonesty.

Harrop is a man, therefore he gets to have an opinion on who he does/doesn’t feel comfortable sharing the men’s toilets with
Women get to decide who they are comfortable sharing the women’s toilets with.

According to gender ideology, gender isn't about how you look, it's in your head. So a big hairy person of either sex could either be a man or a woman. They're the ones who get to decide.

I have to agree 100 percent that women with mastectomies don't look like men! Removing your boobs doesn't change your head, your skeleton, the way you walk, your height, the density of your bones, and a million other things that are different about being a woman!

Thankfully Maya Forstater has written a wonderfully clear article on this situation, which sums things up perfectly-sorry I can't link to it but its on twitter for anyone interested.

beebeeduck a woman who has had a mastectomy does not automatically appear male-thats a really offensive thing to suggest.

That was my point. Of course they don't, which is why it's not a good idea to suggest that women who have had a mastectomy might frighten children.

If Haddock is the model for inclusiveness why doesn't he launch into making men and men's spaces the most fantastically welcoming for all males and all those who identify as males?

THis.

I also find Maya Forstater's argument pretty god against this gotcha - the Equalities Act requires that women's loos etc are single-sex, and that no males should be there. But the EA doesn't require that these are the only spaces women use.

That is, women's spaces are not for men. But they are not compulsory for all women to use.

Maya Forstater's blog

Cat Thanks for linking to Mayas blog

I think Maya's article is important because it treats this familiar gotcha with intellectual honesty and practicality.
Yes, transmen are female, but that doesn't mean it's a non-issue. A bathroom isn't a philosophy class. Someone who passes as male, even if only at first glance, can cause confusion and dismay in a female only space. Unlike butch women transmen who have been taking T have low voices and some have visible facial hair growth, so the normal ways of clearing up the misunderstanding by looking closer or just exchanging a few words don't help.
I had a chat with a detransitioner about this on SM recently. She said that on days where she's too lazy to shave or put on makeup she still uses either the gender neutral (if available) or the men's because she knows she'd make women uncomfortable.
Third spaces as well as personal responsibility + respect for the comfort of others is the only solution imo.