Owen Jones on Twitter today

[Bouledeneige]

twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1260134887165739009?s=21

A tweet that middle class people should pay their cleaner to not work quickly descended into 'rich women paying poor women to clean their homes.' So frustrating the casual sexism. Why is it assumed women are responsible for cleaning their homes and not men. Most working women who can afford a cleaner do so because they have 3 jobs - their work, their childcare and their household. Why aren't the men they are married to taking more household responsibility?

In any case, shouldn't the real question be, is it safe for cleaners to enter other people's houses right now? And if it's not safe, are there guidelines for making it so, and how can we enforce such guidelines?
From what I saw, I think it was largely about that to begin with and there seemed to be quite a reasonable discussion (by Twitter Lockdown standards) going on, until OJ weighed in with his 'everyone has more free time' and parenting tips.

Owen was pointing out that domestic workers - whom are again more likely to be women - shouldn't be risking their health and lives to go and clean a rich woman's house. Then everyone else rightly pointed out it is Sarah Ditum's issue that her husband and 2 teenage children don't lift a finger. Someone very aptly suggested that according to Sarah parents can force their kids to be trans, so why can't she force hers to merely pick up a broom.

Honestly, white feminism is really something else.

White feminism??? I don’t understand what that means - could you explain?

shouldn't be risking their health and lives to go and clean a rich woman's house.

"A rich woman's house". Explain to me how its feminist to assume that women are responsible for arranging the cleaning or for ensuring that any children in the house do their share. This is pure sexism writ large.

Ah, so the hypothetical rich woman is single, then, and that's why it's not her husband's house that he's responsible for cleaning too?

I think this is a good explanation of the issues with how 'white feminism' is used:
www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

Could someone just give me the bullet points to “white feminism” ?

I’m white and have been a cleaner in the past and all the families I cleaned for were white. I’m struggling to see what white feminism has to do with it?

Owen, and VladimirsPoutine, both started out with a very good point. They then both proceeded to undermine their position by assigning all responsibility for middle class men's domestic labour to women, blaming individual women for the social and cultural context in which domestic labour is seen as women's work whilst actively perpetrating it themelves.

Honestly, both sides of this argument are doing the same thing here: relying on one group of women to take on the work created by males refusing to do their share, and refusing to critically examine the consequences of that because it damages their worldview. The blah blah white feminism the solution is for you professional women not to get above yourselves when it comes to doing a disproportionate share of the shitwork types are no different here from that which they despise.

Explain to me how its feminist to assume that women are responsible for arranging the cleaning or for ensuring that any children in the house do their share. This is pure sexism writ large.

It isn't the sole responsibility of a woman , of course it isn't. This scenario is about Sarah - a woman. She was the one suggesting that she deserves a cleaner to come to HER house. In the broader sense it shouldn't be a woman's sole responsibility but the answer to that is that Sarah has an issue with her husband and teenagers that needs to be taken up the them. The solution isn't to get a domestic worker whom is most likely to be a woman and ethnic minority to go and clean the Ditum household.

why it's not her husband's house that he's responsible for cleaning too?
Of course it is her husband's responsibility too! But him being lazy and leaving it all to his wife does not mean that a domestic worker should have to risk her own life. I cannot imagine being a teenager and not lifting a finger in my parent's house to not clean. But I won't speak too much on that as Sarah's attitude really explains MANY things about certain types of demographics.

Typical really. Sarah Ditum and Janice Turner and that lot really do feminism such a huge disservice. Thankfully there's more than one branch of feminism. Carry on.

Vladimir. Do you think it is up to women to police how men behave in their own home? Because that hasn’t worked to well over the past few millennia.

You're all arguing with a strawman.

At what point did this become about whether it's acceptable to hire a cleaner EVER?

The point made is that it's immoral to force a cleaner to work DURING A PANDEMIC.

Context matters. Get a grip.

KaronAVyrus the link I posted above is quite good.
On the surface 'white feminism' is supposedly women are are wealthy and privileged and only looking out for women like them.
However, it's far more broadly used by men and oddly, white liberal feminists to shut down women they disagree with.

'She was the one suggesting that she deserves a cleaner to come to HER house'

Did she suggest that? I thought she said that she had more work to do in the home due to lockdown.

The point made is that it's immoral to force a cleaner to work DURING A PANDEMIC.

I agree with that but that was not what anyone was criticising OJs tweet for.
The criticism was a) that he was assuming women are responsible for cleaning and later b) claiming that women looking after children at home have more time to clean.
It makes massive assumptions about women being the default cleaner/carer and is sexist af. That is what he is being criticised for.

Do you think it is up to women to police how men behave in their own home?

Of course I don't but it is not a domestic worker's fault that Sarah married a layabout who doesn't pull their weight. It isn't Sarah's job to police or tell her husband to clean up either. Unfortunately so many men don't bother and leave the chores/mental load to women - that's frankly outrageous. Call my hyperbolic but a man who doesn't do his share around the house is grounds enough for me to divorce him - I wouldn't put up with that but maybe for some women it isn't a dealbreaker. But the solution to all of that is not a domestic worker in a global pandemic that's killing hundreds daily. Perhaps in any other time a couple might decide that hiring domestic help is a great solution. I hate doing my accounts so I hired someone to do it for me - the issue isn't 'hired' help.

She (Ditum) said she doesn't have a cleaner.

She was the one suggesting that she deserves a cleaner to come to HER house'
Did she suggest that? I thought she said that she had more work to do in the home due to lockdown

No, she definitely didn't suggest that. There's been a huge amount of putting words in her mouth. She also said she doesn't have a cleaner.

It isn't the sole responsibility of a woman , of course it isn't.

I'm glad you now acknowledge that. But your first post stated that it was Sarah Ditum's issue that her husband and teenagers don't do enough, which clearly assigns responsibility for that situation to her, both the existence of it and the onus to change it. When we live in a society where domestic work is seen as being women's duty much more than men's, where that is the baggage we carry going into our heterosexual intimate relationships, that's a massively sexist take.

It doesn't help either that this argument, failing to recognise women's labour as it does, was further compounded by Owen Jones cluelessly claiming that parents now had more time due to lockdown. Further failing to even notice the existence of women's invisible labour. He just doesn't have a clue.

But the solution to all of that is not a domestic worker in a global pandemic that's killing hundreds daily.
Nobody is claiming that. Nobody.

That is what he is being criticised for.

Except if you read their exchange it wasn't. Calling it Sarah's house or Nathan's house is neither here nor there in what we are discussing - let's call it the Ditum house. The point is that a domestic cleaner shouldn't be expected to attend a job during a pandemic.

However, it's far more broadly used by men and oddly, white liberal feminists to shut down women they disagree with.

Oddly enough the same people who think 'Karen' is a slur also think 'white feminism' is a slur too.

let's call it the Ditum house. The point is that a domestic cleaner shouldn't be expected to attend a job during a pandemic.
Are you going to acknowledge that Sarah Ditum said she doesn't have a cleaner? This has been posted several times.

I wouldn't say either are a slur, but if a term is used almost solely to target women by mocking them as outdated gender stereotypes, then its sexist af.

A good example of white feminism is Janice Turner's comment about Owen's "childless privilege".

Are you going to acknowledge that Sarah Ditum said she doesn't have a cleaner? This has been posted several times

Yes I did so even on Twitter - she drew out Owen and didn't even have a cleaner after all of that - so all her affront for nothing but to own Owen. Totally batshit in my opinion.

So is this what happened?

-Woman tweets that she has extra jobs to do in the home due to lockdown.
-Man explains parenting techniques to woman from ivory tower.
-Woman with excess work objects to mansplaining from person who isn't a parent with no experience of parenting.
-Woman criticised and labelled as a terrible person who wants a cleaner to do all her work .
-Woman explains that she has no cleaner.
-Woman labelled terrible person who wants cleaners to clean rich women's houses during the pandemic and consequently so are all white feminists.