Owen Jones on Twitter today

[Bouledeneige]

twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1260134887165739009?s=21

A tweet that middle class people should pay their cleaner to not work quickly descended into 'rich women paying poor women to clean their homes.' So frustrating the casual sexism. Why is it assumed women are responsible for cleaning their homes and not men. Most working women who can afford a cleaner do so because they have 3 jobs - their work, their childcare and their household. Why aren't the men they are married to taking more household responsibility?

Really? I didn't live in a city, but I walked to and from school on my own from that age.

It's a whole different thread @fridgepants. . But in a nutshell, surprisingly few children are allowed any independence until at least high school.

Owen was suggesting that, if you are a parent at home with children old enough, your children should pitch in as a better alternative to expecting a cleaner to come to your home and put yourselves at risks. The 'advice on raising teenagers' is an odd one - he just said that he and his siblings were expected to do the same, as were many when they were living in the family home, so it seemed a reasonable alternative to putting someone at risk in the workplace.

It's not the worst suggestion but I can't think of many teens who would do a timely and decent job without being 'managed' to some degree.

So the question is then who manages and oversees it? For a lot of women who are already juggling work and home life in lockdown it's a lot more extra wifework and mental load to add to their day as opposed to letting a competent cleaner back in who does what they're supposed to, when they're supposed to and to a competent level.

I'm not saying teens shouldn't pitch in, far from it. I have 3 and they do all have their own jobs to do but I can see the added stress it would bring trying rota them all to do above and beyond what they are used to.

Don’t think this has been posted yet:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-underlying-sexism-of-the-conversation-about-cleaners-and-covid/amp?__twitter_impression=true

So the question is then who manages and oversees it?
This. Of course teenagers should pitch in but I'm sure even The Blessed Young OJ needed some direction. And I would wager there were still jobs he didn't do and that he didn't even know needed doing. I acknowledge that somewhere under all the sanctimony there was probably a reasonable point, but to see him telling parents - some of them at the end of their tether - how to parent left a bad taste.

oh god because domestic cleaners and women employing them are the big issue.

Forget that the vast majority of cleaners along with carers, nurses, TAs and teachers are female. NOthing to see here. Let's talk about the odd self employed cleaner who cleans the houses of more fortunate/skilled/whatever women than them.

Talking about protection and proper pay for those nurses, carers and teachers in a time like this is risky. Let's get them to argue whether it's right that a tiny proportion of women have the financial ability to pay someone to do the domestic work men have been expecting them to do for free since forever.

Of course she would publish her opinion in the Spectator. Typical of Ditum and that crowd.

My last post was incomprehensible at best. Sorry.

Putting the word prostitution in place of 'cleaner' reveals he has done a
u-turn in his thinking.

I don't think he has done a U turn, he is being consistent. He is berating women for their parenting skills and for hiring cleaners, and he refuses to judge men for theirs, including paying women for sex.

That whole Twitter storm was such a head fuck. I gave up trying to work out who was claiming who was insulting who. Everyone seemed to take offence. I’ve never employed a cleaner in my life but know that my mum would have been out of a job if someone hadn’t employed her. I don’t think she would have considered being a sex worker (slacker!) My partner’s Nan used to come and clean his family home twice a week. I’m sorry if anyone was homophobic, sexist, racist, classist etc...but it was such a broiling mass of outrage and indignation and I couldn’t grasp what I was supposed to be objecting to. Hope OJ is OK after it all.

From Sarah Ditum's article: "The same left that insists ‘blow jobs are real jobs...’"

I hadn't heard that before. Are there people on the left who really say that? We're in a worse state than I thought.

In the years we had a cleaner, she earned a lot more per hour than I did and she had a massive waiting list so could bin anyone who she didn’t like working for.

She was worth every penny because we absolutely loathe cleaning.

The people who paid me to do their admin could have done it themselves but hated it, so paid me. Never heard them get grief for it, but heard plenty of kvetching about women who have cleaners.

My disabled son had his cleaner in this week. She comes in to do the jobs he's physically unable to do. Owen Jones is a monumental bell end.

I hadn't heard that before. Are there people on the left who really say that? We're in a worse state than I thought.

Yes, it was a protest slogan a couple of years ago, I can't remember when exactly.

People who think having a cleaner is exploitative better all be marxists. All of them. Seriously working for the revolution.

Hmm. Does that go for all criticisms of inherent exploitative forces in capitalism? Like if I want to be critical because westerners depend on workers in poor conditions in far off countries where we don't have to look for them, I have to be fighting for the revolution and also never shop at Walmart?

Women are not beyond criticism any more than any group of people. The freedom of middle class professional women has not necessarily shown solidarity with working class women. In some ways you could say that it is an example of class solidarity, that supported capitalist structures, over feminine solidarity.

We all work in the system we have, often there is really no other choice. But we should be aware of the implications those choices.

So the question is then who manages and oversees it? For a lot of women who are already juggling work and home life in lockdown it's a lot more extra wifework and mental load to add to their day as opposed to letting a competent cleaner back in who does what they're supposed to, when they're supposed to and to a competent level.

And notice that Owen said to Sarah that this is what 'you' should do, there was no specific mention of her partner taking on any of this wifework. Given his previous, I'm unwilling to give him the benefit of the doubt and imagine that he meant you plural, envisaging both parents taking an equal share of all labour involved in this. And even if he did, I wouldn't believe he's thought critically about how likely that would actually be to happen.

Fwiw I thought Sarah Ditum's take was a bad one too, but there's absolutely no denying Owen was doing some sexism again. And hypocrisy. It's as convenient for him and left wing men to have middle class women taking a disproportionate and hidden share of the shitwork as it is for middle class households to pay others to do it for them. If we should critically examine the latter in a pandemic, which I think is a legitimate point, we must also critically examine the former.

And suggesting it's homophobic to point out that a childfree person is childfree is a new level of self serving even for that odious man. He started off with a point worth making, then shat all over it because he couldn't possibly resist mansplaining and is unwilling to accept that the negative consequences of the course of action he advocates would affect women disproportionately.

Really? I didn't live in a city, but I walked to and from school on my own from that age

Things have changed. I walked four blocks to school starting when I was five. But I had to pick up my kids at the school bus - within sight of our house - until they were in grade 4, or they would not let them off the bus.

There was another poster here who was told her 15 year old could not pick up her 9 year old from school, the school would not allow it, an "adult" had to come.

From my own, strictly personal experience, I would say the main benefit of involving teenagers (and indeed young children) in household chores is not a cleaner or tidier house; it is that they learn essential Iifeskills which will hopefully benefit them in the long term. In the shorter term, you're likely to be the loser as it's probably quicker to do it yourself. (But admittedly I never trained OJ.)

I would not take anyone's word who says they pulled their weight at home as a teenager who hasn't had teenagers themselves, especially if they have said (as he did) that people at home with their teenagers have more time to clean while they're WFH / trying to make sure their teens are keeping up their schoolwork / trying to persuade them to keep indoors / counsel the kids through this very anxious experience, even if they do still have their income. Teenagers need to be taught how to look after themselves but it is still often a parenting duty to make them do chores rather than a benefit to the parents especially the fucking endless mediation between multiple teens about who has done more than the other.

He seriously has not a fucking clue but has never let that stop him pontificating in the past.

crossed with Flowisme - totally agree.

The comments on twitter about this are very telling. Incredible amounts of sexism and soooooo many strawmen. Don't think I've seen so many bad faith arguments in a long time even for twitter.

The middle class women who have cleaners are not single, childless women. They're generally women with kids and jobs and a useless man about the house, who doesn't bother to clean up, who doesn't know where the sheets are kept or how to use the hoover. But somehow it's the woman's responsibility to do the cleaning, so of course she's the capitalist pig when she pays someone to do it. Nothing to do with the man: he expected "his" woman to do it, for free. How shocking that she has outsourced her labour! Has she not understood her role? How revoltingly middle class of her not to understand that she is expected to do physical labour without payment, just because she has a vagina!

As a pp said, far better to honestly pay someone to do it, than to bully a woman into doing housework for free.

And of course it's women's responsibility to make sure men pull their weight at home.

I employed a cleaner for 30 years. Initially to get rid of the endless arguments about whose turn it was to clean the bathroom, then because with 2 children and 2 full time jobs we wanted to free up time at the weekends and prevent the house descending into a filthy tip. We paid well and respected the job she did. I never felt a moment's guilt. We were both employees doing a respectable job for money we needed. I don't get the whole hangup - its a job.