What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

My pal was perfectly okay with the idea of a man handcuffing himself to a radiator in a unisex toilet so that other men could piss on him. When I suggested that I would not like to see that when I want the loo, he told me off for being judgemental....

I then proceeded to describe what it's like for me when I am on my period and why I get blood on my hands and need to wash them..... He made retching noises and very quickly insisted on changing the subject....

Your friend sounds like - now please don’t take this the wrong way - an idiot.

It has absolutely crystallised to me how unimportant women's experiences are, and how men expect to be centred in everything.

Very soon, women are going to be shamed for using public loos for things like changing tampons and mooncups.

That's the thing, he's not an idiot. He's lovely, and was always one of my closest friends, for a very long time. But he doesn't think my rights are important, I guess because he is a man.

I think it’s worse than woman = broken man. I think it’s woman is nothing at all, no thought ever until something pops up where a woman is necessary to facilitate something in the mans life. Anything that looks like treatment as a human being is merely a temporary state to gain the woman’s cooperation to get what they want.

That's not my experience of KS3 & 4 right now, I have to say. There is a lot of respect for LGBT expression, but when it comes to the classroom there is an emphasis on critical thinking.

I find there is a lot of talk about critical thinking, but very little understanding of what that actually means. I sense is that this is because for many teachers they see it as being challenging to the dominant narrative. So if they see the dominant narrative of western history as being somehow colonialist, for example, critical thinking would be narrative challenging that. What doesn't much happen is trying to step behind even that and realise that the anti-colonialist perspective is also in some ways a dominant narrative. Or the identity politics narrative.
At a basic level all education begins with Know Thyself - who you are and where your own way of thinking comes from. And if you don't know it you can't look at your own perspective with either the respect or the skepticism it deserves. Many school programs now are so thin on content, particularly historical content, that students are left in a position where the current state of thinking is all there is for them. They have very little sense that there are whole other ways of thinking with a different, but coherent, internal logic. Any diversions from what they have been taught about what is good and right tend to be dismissed as prejudice or racism.

Some of these things I have come to suspect are about having little imagination. Which I realise sounds a little silly, but I've come to the conclusion that many people don't and maybe can't really imagine what it is like to be a different person, or to have different feelings, or what it might be like to live in a different place or situation.

Similarly with ideas - many people when you talk about the implications of a change in law, or just a change in what people believe, cannot extrapolate to imagine the kinds of effects this might have in 10 years or a generation, or how it might impact other sorts of beliefs.

I'm so hoping that the teens coming through will be the critical independent thinkers that will be the anti-snowflakes. On critical thinking, and diversity of opinions and debate, I asked my DD 'Do you think the point of a debate is to win, as in debating clubs or lawyers, or to unveiled the truth?'

That's why I could never understand how a lawyer could advocate for a murderer who is guilty, for example. And why I disagree that everyone's views should be included with equal weight in a discussion, because, clearly some people are not interested in truth, but they will claim they are, and will consciously claim untruths (TWAW, pedophilia as sexual orientation etc.) for their own agendas.

You do not arrive at the truthful, balanced answer, by virtue of including equal representations of different views and reconciling them. E.g. I've had HR telling me that 'Gender' as a word is more inclusive than 'sex' in the equality policy, and so it was replaced with 'Gender'. Sorry, that's not an inclusive, balanced view, that's just plain wrong. Sorry for ramble.

For instance they shut down womens only swim/ gym sessions. They see woman have the space but they dont want it or dont like it because they by control what happens in it. They are the victim because theres no men online session.

I look at this in a slightly different way. For me, men are so used to being centred that they think every time something is dedicated to a different group, it is unfair if they do not get the same consideration. Because they don't understand that every other slot at the swimming pool is, in effect, for men. Because they are used to being able to do what they want without having to adapt. If you ask those male swimmers whether they regularly change how they swim or consider the women in the pool they will claim that they have the right to swim and that the women must get out of the way. They simply can't see it.

I've talked on MN about this before but I read something that said men don't get out of the way for women on the street. I had always thought this was silly as if anything, often men can be "chivalrous" etc. Then I was pregnant with severe SPD and physically couldn't move and I realised that yes, men might regularly hold a door open for me etc, but when walking down the street they automatically assume everyone else will get out of their way - they don't need to adjust. As a result, others (mainly women) don't walk in straight lines but are rather constantly moving and adjusting. But now I couldn't. So instead, I was being bashed around constantly.

When I told DH this, he was completely surprised and couldn't believe it. A few days later he told me that he was deeply ashamed because after we'd discussed it, he'd started paying attention and realised that HE did it. It had been, of course, completely unconscious. This is a man who gives up his seat for everyone, always lets others (not just women) through doors first etc. But he was suddenly aware that when just walking, he just went straight. It was a real light bulb moment for him.

I look at this in a slightly different way. For me, men are so used to being centred that they think every time something is dedicated to a different group, it is unfair if they do not get the same consideration.

Other examples include, for example, female only shortlists: "so men must be penalised and withdrawn from consideration?" [no, but do you really believe that men are ALWAYS the best option and that there's no unconscious bias in an election or job search? weird how 90% of the winners in these situations are men?]

They don’t even know they are centred at the expense of others. Walking blithely through opened doors, cleared paths, in clean clothes, with full stomachs, hold on what is this - a thing I am not allowed? How can this be?

Meanwhile women are socialised from birth to be hyper aware of others needs and put them before our own.

I am also seeing inequality and misogyny everywhere, but to my surprise women inflict a lot of it on themselves. It does all seem to revolve around children, childcare, caring responsibilities; I think because I am not a mum myself I can see the inequality much clearer as an outsider. It astounds me sometimes, how my friends call themselves feminists and say they are raising their daughters to believe they can be whatever they want to be whilst taking on such hugely unequal domestic responsibilities.

It seems as though we have been conditioned to be completely compliant and unquestioning, at the same time as being told we can fight for our rights....

How many mothers will bargain with their children’s well-being, cleanliness, health, etc etc to achieve equal domestic responsibilities? Not many, and the men refusing equal share know it.

That’s what the line “we forgot about the children” means. I can’t remember which feminist said it, was post 70s

Lots of excellent observations here, many that I share, although could not express so eloquently.

For me, one of the top tips I've learnt from this 'debate' is it's useful for every GC thinker to know a good lawyer and to have their phone number to hand at all times.

In answer to OP, how the Labour Party refused and refuses to acknowledge the rights of women. Never ever did I think I would concur with people like Michael Portillo.

I am fortunate enough to work with thoughtful and intelligent people. Two men in their 30s have been utterly supportive and horrified by the creeping hatred of women and erosion of female only spaces.

I didn’t realise how frightened society was of challenging ideas. There seems to be a wish to placate everyone and anyone - at women’s expense.

And I didn’t imagine that a child or young person feeling confused, insecure and unsure could result in them having surgery which would and does affect their lives. Society allowed that.

I am also seeing inequality and misogyny everywhere, but to my surprise women inflict a lot of it on themselves. It does all seem to revolve around children, childcare, caring responsibilities; I think because I am not a mum myself I can see the inequality much clearer as an outsider. It astounds me sometimes, how my friends call themselves feminists and say they are raising their daughters to believe they can be whatever they want to be whilst taking on such hugely unequal domestic responsibilities.

You are right in that it appears to be clear cut from the outside looking in but as 2ndStar says it's very difficult for most women to override the maternal instinct to do the very best by our children.

This gets hugely exploited and many women know perfectly well (via feminist analysis) that this is the case but will put up with a level of inequality if the alternative is their children's lives are diminished in some way.

How damaging porn is.

That it is possible for a lefty like me to agree with Conservatives (that was really tough), and the occasional thing Piers Morgan and daily wail says, and that actually listening to people on all sides and engaging calmly rather than painting everyone as good or bad is actually a rather good idea.

How poorly lots of people communicate and instead use long words and complicated formulations to try and bamboozle others into agreement.

How violent and vitriolic the twitter pileons are.

Doxxing. The tactics of TRAs, it's not just debate, words, there are real life consequences. Any opinions they don't like is branded 'hate speech' and 'literal violence', then they pile on, threaten find out who you are, where you work, and make you lose your livelihood....and spineless most companies are in not pushing back on this nonsense.

Doxxing is absolutely vile. Woman obey, use the speech we tell you to, have these beliefs or be punished. It’s self appointed witch finders who are facilitated by the world to crush women’s lives for not believing.

They don’t even know they are centred at the expense of others. Walking blithely through opened doors, cleared paths, in clean clothes, with full stomachs, hold on what is this - a thing I am not allowed? How can this be?

Yes! Exactly.

rabbitwoman sorry but your friend is not lovely. I had a kind of epiphany about a gay male friend I've had for a long time, it was kind of depressing. He has turned out to be rabidly TWAW and when trying to engage him in discussion, he came out with a lot of really shocking misogynistic crap about lesbians - real contempt and dislike. The scales fell from my eyes - I really hadn't seen his misogyny before and realised I had unconsciously given him a free pass on it because he is gay. Not at all saying this applies to all gay men but in some ways they can be even more misogynistic than straight men.

@Ovahere you are absolutely right. I am very aware of the inequalities in my marriage and I don't feel I can fight back without my children missing out. I think it has ruined our relationship.

Yes I have also noticed a breed of woke bro gay men who are some of the worst misogynists (I'm thinking OJ from the Graudian's ilk).

Even for straight men, any women that they are not interested in sexually (even if subsciously), they tend to dislike them and treat them with contempt, I think. I've come to this conclusion as I got older, more invisible, and noticeably, men treat me differently to when I was younger and prettier.

So for some gay men who are not interested in women, it's like there's nothing really preventing all that contempt and dislike for women.

@totallyyesno I'm know I'm right because I'm in a similar boat although it's not entirely the fault of my DH, we have a SN child which has complicated things a lot. That said, like most men he could do better.

The way I chose to look at it is that I get involved and commit to feminist activism in the small ways that I can even if my own life isn't a feminist utopia. There's a lot to be done that can improve the lives of women and girls in far worse situations than my own and that can have a positive effect for future generations.

Don't feel bad about it, sometimes good enough is just that.