What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

The wanking rubber man at the NSPCC was just so shocking. It will be a cold day in hell before I donate any money to that bunch.

Lots of great comments on this thread, but this one has particularly made me think

That people really think that women are sort of broken men.

I have seen for quite some time that some men really do hate women, but thinking about it, I would say that a lot more men are harbouring the broken man theory. To an extent, I would even include my DH in this. They don't see us as women, they see us as failed males.

Which brings me to the excellent points about safeguarding. The most vulnerable in society are usually those who are furthest from "successful male", so they don't matter.

As Nauticant has already said, for me it's about freedom of speech and how this is under sustained attack. I also agree about the importance of media plurality and diversity. The tactics used to enforce a rigid, insular good think conformity are to immediately accuse people of hate speech/bigotry. This has been applied to people for voting Brexit, Conservative. It has been applied to left wing feminists like Germaine Greer. It is being wielded like a club to prevent discussion. It's sinister. And it goes hand in glove with an Orwellian deconstruction of the meaning of words. The 21st century Newspeak dictionary is being compiled by authoritarians who claim to be progressive. They are zealots.

Yy to the NSPCC issue. Their capture and then their reaction to criticism of rubberman made it clear these people are in no way fit to protect children. The fact that it has been barely reported makes it even worse.

Shame on all involved - rubberman himself but also all the execs around him, the trustees and advisers, the journalists who knew but didn’t report on it, the BBC, as ever, and of course Owen Jones and all his creepy followers for slinging mud at those who were standing up for children’s right to decency.

Lots of people have commented deep seated hatred for women.

I see it differently. What I've really noticed is how men are centred in EVERYTHING and the resulting privilege that comes with this. And when they aren't, many react badly and aggressively.

And the trans "debate" which really, is about MEN wanting to be able to do or be or portray themselves however they want and for WOMEN to move out of their way in order to achieve this, is just the most blatant version of this. DH is always confused about why it's transwomen that everyone is up in arms about and not transmen. And I have to remind him every time that it's because men aren't scared of transmen. If a transman enters their spaces, it's the transman who is at risk.

DH is 100% a feminist ally. But so many of these issues have to be explained carefully and repeatedly to him because they're simply not instinctive for him. He's so used to being the default "person" and his "rights" being inviolate that he has to really stop and think every time. And what has scared me time and time again are all the other "nice" white men who don't want to think about this or can't because they don't even realise how very very centred and privileged they are.

That people really think that women are sort of broken men.

Yes, I'm reminded of the "eggshell skulls" comment.

I think the trans issue is about subordinating the concerns of women and girls to the desire of natal males to take a battering ram to our spaces. There is also the expectation that the only appropriate female response to this dismantling of women's exclusive spaces is enthusiastic support. The sense of entitlement is so explicit.

i think thats bang on Bling my DH is exacty like that, in fact thinking about it, all the men I know are like that. They are the default human, the world is designed around them and they dont see it or realise how immensly privilaged they are.

They dont actively hate women at all, they just dont realise how everything from the langauage we use to the phones we carry start with them at this defualt user. its just invisible to them.

They also dont know what its like to be smaller and weaker than half the human race. Even thugh my DH and I both 'know' he's far more likely to be attacked by a man than I am, hes never changed his behaviour because it's not been ingrained into him to do so from a young age

so i dont think its hatred from most men (Obvs though some really dislike women) its just utter self centred oblivious privilege

I work with young people. I agree with you. I also think that social media is lagely to blame tbf.

I agree as well, as someone in education. I think it goes beyond the media however. Education has been rethought and is being delivered in an entirely different way. It's belongs entirely to the logic of identity politics for one thing. But facts or coming to conclusions aren't really part of the picture in many cases - it's all about accepting the proposed view that the school wants the kids to come to and teaching is very directly to that end.

But facts or coming to conclusions aren't really part of the picture in many cases - it's all about accepting the proposed view that the school wants the kids to come to and teaching is very directly to that end.

That's not my experience of KS3 & 4 right now, I have to say. There is a lot of respect for LGBT expression, but when it comes to the classroom there is an emphasis on critical thinking.

I wouldn't blame the teachers and teaching if they are being given guidance by central government and the CPS telling them how they MUST handle trans politics.

They are the default human, the world is designed around them and they dont see it or realise how immensly privilaged they are

Fish don't realise they're swimming in water ...

What I've really noticed is how men are centred in EVERYTHING and the resulting privilege that comes with this. And when they aren't, many react badly and aggressively.

Deborah Frances White talked about this in an early episode of TGF. It seemed she really got it, so her going TWAW was really disappointing.

They are the default human, the world is designed around them and they dont see it or realise how immensly privilaged they are

Even when its explained to them though their default position is always to take away never to add

They know they are privileged but they seem to want to turn themselves into the victim every time.

For instance they shut down womens only swim/ gym sessions. They see woman have the space but they dont want it or dont like it because they by control what happens in it. They are the victim because theres no men online session. They have had plenty of time to campaign for one . They could easily have their own sessions. But they dont. They instead complain and get them removed altogether.

I've been trying to juggle around the language in my head, because I'm trying to think of a way of expressing this kind of default male mentality that props up so much of what we call misogyny, woman hatred, sexism etc.

Someone was talking a few weeks ago about not using misogyny so much, because it sounds like a technical term, and using woman-hatred instead, but the last few posts have crystallized for me why I'm not satisfied with that.

I know a number of men who are decent sorts, and willing to listen to me about feminism, but if I talk about men hating women, I get huge pushback because they don't class themselves as 'hating' women.

But I have made considerable headway with some men by talking about them as being the default - Invisible Women has been very helpful in this regard - and shifting the focus away from language which puts people immediately on the defensive.

Going in cold and talking about women-hate or even misogyny when you are trying to enlighten and be persuasive is as effective as calling someone a Nazi, tbh.

One of my favourite little phrases is 'the opposite of love is not hate, it is use', and that sums up the problem with most men I know personally. They don't have huge conscious animosity towards women, which is what they think of when you say hate, but they do view women in a very utilitarian way as a default, and the headway I've made has usually been in highlighting that 'use' aspect.

Men will bristle at being told they hate women, and they often reject it out of hand. But tell a man to think about how much he assumes women will serve him, and how little he acknowledges their existence as whole human beings, and he may well find himself challenged on a moral level that he can grab hold of.

This is a great thread.

If depressing!

Sounds like you're taking an approach that aligns with a thoughtful, non-accusatory examination of privilege and what it means, Floral. I agree that inviting people to view a situation from another perspective is a good start to a conversation. Or at least, better than starting off accusing people of being bigots, anyway.

You need a certain atmosphere and mutually respectful mindset for that to work, though. If you're talking to someone who fundamentally rejects that there is any other point of view than their own, you're on a hiding to nothing.

I think I have lost one of my best friends to this ideology. Not explicitly, but we have definitely not been close since a twitter 'debate' about two years ago. He is gay and I am sure he equates the trans struggle to homophobic oppression - when I suggested that women were at risk if men were allowed access to their safe spaces he said it was the same as saying all homosexuals were pedophiles....

I also think he sees me disagreeing with TWAW is the same as homophobia. I was best man at his wedding, for God's sake.

He doesn't know any transwomen in real life (I do, and like and respect the ones I know very much). He affirms them all the time on twitter but if I try to engage with him he shuts me down by saying that as we are never going to agree probably best not to talk about it..... It saddens me hugely that he would take on the cause of strangers on line but not listen to a WOMAN who has been very close friends for over two decades.....

Hilariously, he has a side hustle in art and draws erotic nudes - all men with penises. Where are all the men with vaginas? Well, obviously he is not interested, but he does not even understand how that would be considered transphobic because, well, he is a man.

Would he sleep with a trans man who had no surgery. Why not?

If you're talking to someone who fundamentally rejects that there is any other point of view than their own, you're on a hiding to nothing.

Granted, Singasonga, but I've long ago worked out that attempting persuasion and dialogue with people like that is a pointless waste of time (see also: trying to do this on Twitter)

That people really think that women are sort of broken men.

Yes, and I would include myself in that! Not that I think women are broken but I have surprised myself in some situations when I realised I was subconsciously seeing men as the default human. I think this goes a lot deeper than we realise.

don't know how to describe the sort of behavior that's flourished due to the mainstreaming of porn in terms of people oversharing and trying to push their fetishes in entirely inappropriate contexts. Sexual incontinence? I'm not arguing for a return to never talking about sex, but surely there's a balance that can be struck between that and posting about your fetish 50 times a day on Tumblr or Twitter, with photos, and then getting into screaming arguments with anyone who's all "um, this is a book group and we were talking about Mansfield Park?" because how dare those people try to shame you (by politely requesting that you cease the kinkspamming).

This topic needs its own thread! Beautifully put. I have been thinking about this and the impact of it on women and girls. I think it is indecent exposure by digital platforms. It’s the virtual equivalent of flashing which we know now is not trivial, does escalate and the hit that the exposer receives from it requires the shock/disgust/cringe from their victim. It’s a fetish that needs unwilling participants. Expanding on that it becomes obvious that digital platforms lend themselves to a new way for exhibitionists and others to feed their fetish.

Those engaging in these behaviours online get the added thrill of being able to wrap themselves in victimhood and righteous indignation when they asked to stop. I suspect this extra hit is less available in real life. Although, thinking that through, it’s exactly the same attack response that we see when women refuse a “compliment”, rebuff physical approaches or worse.

Fundamentally it’s the same entitled expectation that women will perform the part a man has assigned to them, when women refuse - immediate recast. Women is the aggressor and the man a victim. Same thing over and over again it’s only the set/costumes/props that change.

I can only assume that these horrible intersections stem from an internal belief that women aren’t actually people in their own right because men people can say no or I disagree and this is accepted.

Interactions not intersections sorry.

Would he sleep with a trans man?

No, he really would not. And I know this because he has talked about his fear/ repulsion for the vagina as a part of his homosexuality before, quite openly and frankly I am not offended at all by that, but rather, that he is quite happy to openly and quite assertively support an agenda that takes away that very same right from lesbians.

But I don't think he is even aware of that huge part of the debate. And if he was he would still very patiently say that yes, that was wrong, but TWAW..... It would not occur to him that if there is such a huge push to remove sexual boundaries from lesbians (but not so much gay men), then who are the people pushing this agenda really? Are they truly transgender?

Of course, I have never been able to get this far. Because #noDebate.

Tell his that he really ought to go on social media with his rampant transphobia and see who that goes for him. But then men seem to get off lightly.