What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

What is the difference between a conservative telling a lesbian she should think seriously about marrying a man to deal with her 'disordered sexuality' and a progressive telling a lesbian she should be open to 'women with penises' because she can 'get over' her sexual orientation?

Quite. I've been thinking about this a lot recently.
Its like conservatives/right wing believe gender stereotypes are real because God/nature, and 'progressives' believe in gender stereotypes are real because of 'gender identity'.
Same old patriarchy whichever way you look at it.

• How fragile free speech and freedom of thought were

• I had previously thought that both left and right were equally likely to get into these positions of political puritanism. I'm no longer sure that is true, the left may be particularly vulnerable to that.

• The extent to which liberal individualistic capitalism has captured the political discourse, and people's image of reality, across the political (and non-political) spectrum.

• The extent to which people who are considered society leaders and thinkers, like socialists, are really not more thoughtful than anyone else.

-How badly allowing interest groups to be very involved in politics has gone.

-The extent to which people, particularly beginning with the generation right behind mine, have been educated with a clear political agenda but very little actual information.

-The extent that media outlets I considered to be dedicated to good journalism have actually suppressed certain points of view.

-Like the OP said, I am far more likely to consider perspectives that seem wrong or weird, and to want to ask pointy questions about tropes and phrases and language that people, particularly of the left, take for granted.

• I've been surprised to see many areas where years ago conservatives predicted problems, and I dismissed them as unlikely, or slippery slope predictions - and they seem to have come true. What's more in a few instances it seems that there were people all along who hoped for that outcome.

I was talking about this recently with a friend. It’s made me very wary of identity politics. It’s clarified the importance of freedom of speech and made me look more closely at all sides of debates. I try to avoid being offended by things. It’s had quite a profound effect on me I think for the better. I am far less black and white than I was a few years ago.

Oh - that should be scientists, not socialists. Not sure if that is a brain fart or the computer thinking it knows what I want.

I've been think a lot more about the idea of intellectual resilience, and as an educator, what kinds of things do people need to learn in order to be able to think through ideas clearly and come to conclusions, one where they know where they are making assumptions, and why they have chosen those ones rather than others.

The realisation that the Germaine Greer quote that "women have very little idea of how much men hate them" is so true. I always thought it was a bit over the top and used to dismiss it.

The misogyny! Once seen it's so difficult to unsee. Even my DH sees it now and he is shocked. I get so cross at Judge John Deed when I used to think he was a lovable rogue.

I'm now much more of a feminist than I ever thought I was or would be.

That the Spectator of all periodicals would come nearest to matching my current political approach.

Some of the articles appear to be from a different world than the one I inhabit but they declared for Brexit while having Matthew Parris and Nick Cohen write multiple columns showing how much they disagreed with it, plus they would have been happy to have a Trans columnist balance James Kirkup's excellent columns had anyone been willing to write for them.

My preferred approach is that of either of the female protesters in this clip - one's pro-life, one's pro-choice, they're side by side, completely disagree but each respects the other's right to protest. What makes it a sad indictment of today's politics is the guy who then turns up and proceeds to kick the phone out of the hand of one of the women (the woman is then prompty defended by the other woman, good for her).

Self-righteousness meaning that any and all acts against his opponents are justified or just someone looking for socially-acceptable outlets for their own violent urges, who knows? Anyway, it's a clip that speaks to me as it's the way the Lib Dems (for one) used to be before that political element was taken over by authoritarian Liberals who seem convinced that theirs is the one true path.

I'm shocked at the speed with which good intentions/ideas go bad. It's a tipping point not a gradual decline. The danger of optimism bias with new technology, connecting people wasn't supposed to be about connecting paedophiles and misogynists.
I look back and regret how I dismissed the thin edge of the wedge arguments of conservatives like Mary Whitehouse.
The state of academics and censorship of ideas in the very places which should fight tooth and nail to protect freedom of thought.
And everything others have said.

How so many public figures are essentially cowards, even if touted as “outspoken”. In a similar vein how so many I viewed as intelligent are actually quite shallow thinkers.

The realisation that the Germaine Greer quote that "women have very little idea of how much men hate them" is so true.

Same here.

On the flip side of finding out how rampant misogyny is, particularly amongst the wokebros, I've discovered that support has come from unlikely places. Who'd have thought that Graham Linehan would be the one showbiz person to come out definitively in favour of women's rights?

Also that’s a great quote, thanks for sharing Wrath.

the idea that gentials dont matter when you have sex and calling lesbians vagina fetishists

'sex is about more than genitals' - sexual attraction is multi faceted but at the end of the day sex does include touching genitals whether thats with fingers, tongue, penis

im not a lesbian or bi and therefore i am never in a million years going to want to have sex with a woman because i dont want to touch another woman's genitals or breasts

the idea that this makes me some kind of cavewoman grunting deviant because im having sex with someone's body and not their inner gender "essense" makes my head explode

The willingness of supposedly intelligent people to believe illogical, incoherent, evidence free nonsense if they think that this is the ‘liberal’ position. Emperors clothes is a real thing.

This. Exactly this!

How stupid, shallow, weak and desperate to be liked/popular so many politicians are.

That the small number who can be bothered to be active political (example as in student politics) get to set the agenda and make up the rules and that they’re often the last people who should be given this power. Scary

Thanks BIN
From his book, A Thousand Splendid Suns, a great fiction book on the terrible hardships inflicted on women in Afghanistan.
A real eye opener.

The power of the technology giants willfully ignoring the concerns of women.

So much.
The misogyny thing definitely. Even now I'm reluctant to think men hate women but every day more and more evidence piles on to suggest it's true and someone on Twitter said a thing yesterday that shocked me in its truth. I can't find it now but basically saying that men will always work in their own best interests and TRA rhetoric and alienating lesbians / telling them they need to accept penises ticks that box.
How vile people will be to complete strangers.
How much time and energy people have to invest in being vile and working to oppress and silence women and LGB people.
How telling a generation of young people they were unique special snowflakes where all participants get a medal has fuelled a rampant narcissm.
Validation through visibility.
How feeble and self-serving academia is, churning out ridiculous 'peer-reviewed' but flimsy reasoning purely so people get their PhDs. And that these papers are held up as evidence because they serve the current doctrine.
How a rush to inclusion and to recognise privilege has fuelled lefties of both sexes throwing women under the TRA bus. But it's wrong to believe all white people are bad just because they're white or that everyone should be included just because they claim they're a member of a disadvantaged group.
How some charities will work against their stated aims in order to secure funding.
How blind so many people are to these issues.
How scary it is to speak up on these issues because of needing to work.
How quickly people will embrace totally unsuitable people in the name of diversity without thinking how inappropriate that is to the children in their care.
How biased Twitter is.
How easy it is to get sucked into ridiculous thinking just because some people say it emphatically / loudly enough and how oddly hard it can be to unpick those messages when someone is just shouting TERF in your face.
How people who are generally quite smart will repeat plainly ridiculous and untrue things in the name of being inclusive. (I was one of them.)

That people really think that women are sort of broken men.

That people love religious and magical beliefs.

That many men believe that men who don’t want to be men or don’t feel like men or don’t do very well at being men are repellent and disgusting and therefore must be women.

That some people, including very educated people, really do not think.

That people love to be part of a tribe especially one that claims to be the kind tribe.

That our governance is broken.

It's the misogyny.

The anger and bile that spews forth when women don't just sit down and shut up when they're told to.
The misogyny has always been there, but I have never been able to see it so clearly as I do in this 'debate.'

How little men understand women’s experience

This, many times over. Epitomised in "the midnight walk", it's when transvestites first go out "dressed" because they feel safe in the dark.

Definitely the misogyny, and the personal effect that has had on me. I see men differently. I don't trust them nor like them as a group and even as individuals, they need to prove to me they are truly and honestly good and supportive of women....no benefit of the doubt.

I think so many men have handed themselves over to evil in their sick and gleeful abuse of women, as evidenced by the cheering and goading men who push this ideology- I can think of no other way to describe it.

Yes a great book Wrath, it definitely opened my eyes as a teenager. I think I will reread it soon.

Every part of this #nodebate has proven that women’s rights don’t belong to women. They belong to men. Who give or take away as they see fit.

I can’t unsee it. I don’t know why I thought it was something else. How could it be anything other than this when no matter what women fought for it didn’t happen until it was ratified by men.

It honestly never even occurred to me that a lot of men simply hate women.

Also. On a personal level, how little courage I have. As I’m still largely publicly silent on this issue through fear