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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

510 replies

FredFlintstonesTunic · 30/04/2020 11:49

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 07/05/2020 17:16

Because they're not. They're trans women.

By saying that a man can be a woman if he says he is, you are implying that there is something he has in common with me and all other women and that he is different from all other men (apart from the other men who say they are women).

If some men are women, what definition of woman are you using? What turns a man into a woman?

OldCrone · 07/05/2020 17:18

You use to vote as an example - it takes nothing away from me in the way of rights that women are allowed to vote.
My rights are still there.

Are you a man?

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 17:23

Are you a man
No, I'm a woman.
All I was saying was that women being able to vote is still my right, it takes nothing away from me in that sense.
So a man comes out as trans, why would you decide to become a woman just because women can now vote?
Seems a bit..... drastic.
They'd still be trans whether they had the vote or not.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 17:26

So a man comes out as trans, why would you decide to become a woman just because women can now vote?

What OldCrone means is that a man no longer loses voting rights by identifying as a woman.

BTW I just checked with ex, who as a self-identified AGP very definitely fits under the trans umbrella. He's quite adamant that he's not a woman, he's a man.

Is he allowed to be a man who is trans?

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 17:57

What OldCrone means is that a man no longer loses voting rights by identifying as a woman

No, but my point was that if you're trans, you'd still be trans whether you were allowed to vote or not.
Really bizarre IMO to think that voting rights has anything to do with being trans and that they'd be more likely to say they're trans as they still get the vote Confused

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 18:01

I fear you've missed OldCrone's point entirely.

A man is less likely to identify as a woman if this loses him rights.

So no comment on whether my ex can be a man who is trans, then?

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 18:05

A man is less likely to identify as a woman if this loses him rights

So going by your logic, there was no such thing as trans people (or at the least, a lot less) trans people before women got rights?
I'm sure they were still around.

Lordfrontpaw · 07/05/2020 18:07

I’ve seen ‘trans Muslim wives’ on twitter. Not quite the same thing but still an odd mindset.

Goosefoot · 07/05/2020 18:18

So going by your logic, there was no such thing as trans people (or at the least, a lot less) trans people before women got rights?
I'm sure they were still around.

Pretty evidently there weren't. It wasn't even a concept people had. There was no real possibility of changing sexual characteristics in any substantial way, and their impact was significant. And there was no concept of gender as some separate category.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 18:19

I'll ask one final time, Lemonade:

Can my ex be both trans and a man?

The fact that you've twice now failed to even acknowledge this question, in contrast to how quick you were to insist on misgendering me, says it all really.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 18:21

Goose! We're agreeing entirely on something! This feels worthy of celebration.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 18:27

Pretty evidently there weren't. It wasn't even a concept people had

True, can see that - as it won't have been understood as much and as you say people will have had no concept of it.
I bet there was some that were though, but had no idea what it was as you say there was no concept of being trans.
Wouldn't have meant that there were none around who were unhappy and confused though, I'd have thought they'd still be around.
Rigid stereotypes will have been in place, men were supposed to be men and do man things, and women were supposed to be women and do women things.
Kind of like it better now where we're not forced into stereotypes, I can go out and work if I want to and I don't have to stay at home and bake all day and wait hand on foot on my man - we can be who we are. Without telling us what we "should" do or be.

WineGummyBear · 07/05/2020 18:30

How many of the wonderful, intelligent, kind men in my family and close friends REALLY REALLY don't want to acknowledge the extent of male violence against women.

I think they thought separate facilities were equally for the benefit of both sexes to save embarrassment.

The idea that to a woman any man is a potential threat...they do NOT want to hear it.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 18:33

The idea that to a woman any man is a potential threat...they do NOT want to hear it.

In my opinion and experience, that's a really warped and paranoid way of thinking.
That all men are a threat - they're just people.
There's bad ones and good ones.
I'm not about to start going round being scared of all men and that they're all a potential threat just because a randomer on the internet told me I should be.

Goosefoot · 07/05/2020 18:35

*Goose! We're agreeing entirely on something! This feels worthy of celebration.

Datun · 07/05/2020 18:36

Lord, I'm sure we've been through this a 1000 times, lemonade.. You know full well that it's not all men are a threat, but it's almost exclusively men.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 18:45

That sounds like a good excuse for a rum cream and milk for me.

Now that's what gets my face going Envy. But to each her own. Cheers!

Goosefoot · 07/05/2020 18:48

True, can see that - as it won't have been understood as much and as you say people will have had no concept of it.
I bet there was some that were though, but had no idea what it was as you say there was no concept of being trans
Wouldn't have meant that there were none around who were unhappy and confused though, I'd have thought they'd still be around.

Well, that's a possibility, but I don't think there is really a lot of evidence to support it. Mainly because the concept you seem to have of being trans, as being an objective type of person, is very questionable medically or scientifically.

What seems to have been the case is that there were men and women, defined biologically, who felt like they didn't like some things society associated with their own sex, or in some cases preferred to do certain things usually associated with the other sex. Depending on various circumstances those thoughts and practices may have been more or less tolerated - it's never been the case that all women were equally interested in being very "feminine" and people have generally known that. A woman who wanted to dress like a man would have been less common though not unheard of, a woman who wanted to join the navy, well, that had to be done on the sly and would be quite difficult to do.

But that's quite different than what you are talking about.

As for some sort of body dysphoria attached to the sexual organs, perhaps this existed in the past though I believe the historical evidence doesn't really clearly indicate a person is something like what people might call "trans" now. Third genders in some societies seem to be a different phenomena.

RuffleCrow · 07/05/2020 18:53

The same as you op - the power of the mass media and rich lobby groups to essentially lie to the public without any consequences or checks and balances.

My big question is "if they can get away with telling a lie so big and obvious, what else are the media and policy makers lying to us about?"

There must be millions of topics about which the general public is ignorant that could be past or future targets.

WrathofFaeKIopp · 07/05/2020 19:21

But transwomen are in fact biological men.

Goosefoot · 07/05/2020 19:31

My big question is "if they can get away with telling a lie so big and obvious, what else are the media and policy makers lying to us about?"

There must be millions of topics about which the general public is ignorant that could be past or future targets.

This is what is so concerning about the way journalistic standards are being observed. t's not that I agreed with every paper or journalist before, but there was a sense that there were certain things you had to do to be a serious paper or writer.

I don't have that now even about papers I used to really respect.

The other side of this though is in some ways, it's been enforced by a social change, at least in some demographics, about what it is ok to say and not say. There are a lot of young people in particular who believe in control of different kinds of speech and ideas. There has been a real generational change and I think that is part of what the media is reflecting.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 19:43

There has been a real generational change and I think that is part of what the media is reflecting.
Good post there Goosefoot especially this bit and thought provoking

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 19:43

FFS bold the top line as it's a quote Blush

WrathofFaeKIopp · 07/05/2020 19:48

Journalists were silenced on trans issues after the Lucy Meadows case.
Reporting crimes committed by trans has been stifled ever since.
Editors have had their hands tied except for the worst cases like Karen White.

Photos allow editors to get past the legal hoops.

There is little point reading news articles with false pronouns but photos of trans speak the truth.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 19:55

but photos of trans speak the truth

What, that trans women might look like a man?
Well, yes a lot will as they are biologically men and no-one has disputed that? Doesn't stop them being trans women though.
There's a big flaw in your argument though -you're judging what people are based on their appearance.
Bit crap for any biological woman who doesn't look "womanly" enough for you (whatever the fuck that is.)