What is the moral difference between sex work and other forms of work?

[MooFeatures]

Hear me out. I know the two are different, and that and that a person selling their body (indeed, their consent) for sex is morally different to other types of work which they wouldn’t engage in if that financial incentive (coercion?) wasn’t present. I’m not questioning this position... I’d just like to be able to fully articulate why the two are different. All explanations gratefully received

hooda sorry this is making you feel emotional

paying for sex with a willing person this is the whole problem with his thinking - if the woman plain wanted to be having sex, she'd just be having sex with him, not trading it for money.

The whole sexual interaction sours the instant money is handed over because she has become a good or product he has paid for and that changes how he sees her, how her judges her morally as a person, what he feels he is entitled to do to her, what behaviour she now feels obliged to accept from him, how he treats her, whether he hurts her, the danger to her physically and mentally from all of the above. It's horrible. The absolute antithesis of what a woman wants from sex for sex's sake. When the man pays, the woman's feelings and experience of the encounter are rendered irrelevant. And porn gives us a terrifying window into what men like to do to women when the need to respect our humanity is removed along with our clothes. It's dangerous and degrading to the individual and damaging to us all.

Making anything illegal which has a demand brings in criminals to control the supply

It's not illegal to pick fruit, but we still have gang masters trafficking workers into countries to do tasks like this.

Isn’t that an argument for decriminalisation though? Making anything illegal which has a demand brings in criminals to control the supply. Some people (not me) argue that making prostitution legal would allow for brothels run with labour laws, minimum wage, sick pay etc

It will never happen, mainly because there is no way to be a health and safety compliant prostitute.

But even if it did, much of the harm associated with prostitution is to do with men feeling entitled to sex. Legalising or decriminalising prostitution will make that worse, not better. We can see some of those effects in society happening because of the widespread availability of extreme porn.

People's bodies should not be for sale.

Prostitution is not illegal in the UK.

Why do supporters of the sex trade so often say it is?

Women and girls have been enslaved in practice through a variety of means and mechanisms throughout history and all around the world.

For sex, reproduction, and free labour.

The fact this is seemingly invisible to most people is very telling.

Look at the situation for women in law in Afghanistan under the taleban or even women's position in law in Saudi Arabia until even recently.

This historical and pretty global view of women as chattel underpins the attitudes towards prostitution now.

Prostitution is not illegal in the UK

Why do supporters of the sex trade so often say it is?

Muddying the issue?

Most ancillary activities are illegal e.g soliciting, pimping, brothel keeping and with good reason.

This then leads to the claim that UK law prevents 2 prostitutes working together in a flat with the assistance of their motherly maid to deal with bookings/domestic issues and their strong, but sensitive, minder to sort out the problematic punters.

Making anything illegal which has a demand brings in criminals to control the supply

That's such a stupid argument. You might as well tear up all criminal law.

That argument falls over as soon as you realise that places where prostitution is legal ''experience larger reported human trafficking inflows''
www.lse.ac.uk/website-archive/GeographyAndEnvironment/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-prostitution-anonymous-REVISED.pdf

The paper in plain English;
orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

In terms of consent, general leisure activities are completely different to sex. My view on consent has always been specific to sexual activity.

I'm single now after a long term relationship ended last year. There's a thread on it here somewhere but in short, it ended after he cheated and got the OW pregnant. With retrospect, it was toxic and highly abusive. He would put his hands round my neck during sex and I went along with it because he liked it. One night he also grabbed me by the throat and pushed me to the ground, two passers by got him off me. So now, I do feel quite strongly about not 'going along' with things to make other people happy.
At the time I had no idea how damaging it was and I'd be devastated at the thought of other women doing the same.

The screenshot was something I saw and it reminded me of the bigger picture, that was all. I absolutely don't pretend to know everything about feminism so wouldn't even attempt explaining it as a concept to anyone else. I can only explain how I feel about/view specific issues as I've done here. I do apologise if you felt I belittled your point, that wasn't my intention. I tried to acknowledge the point we differ on, that's all. I do respect your point, but disagree. Just as you disagree with me. Perhaps it is down to our differences in experience, as many things are.

Sorry should have been clearer. My post above was in reply to @DidoLamenting

And also, in hindsight the screenshot was very randomly tacked on! Just something I saw and the entitlement struck me as similar to the attitudes of men who think it's ok to 'buy' women for sex. Really should have explained myself better but it wasn't in relation to any specific post on here.

And also, in hindsight the screenshot was very randomly tacked on

Really? You just randomly tacked on a really horrible quote which had nothing to do with what I said? Or no connection to any post - in a post replying to me?

Looked to me as if you were suggesting it was something I would agree with. And I really don't need you to point out how wrong buying sex is.

I dunno maybe this is a little too simple but if it’s a moral violation to own a fellow human being (slavery), it must therefore also be a violation to rent one...

Looked to me as if you were suggesting it was something I would agree with.

I was agreeing with a comment another poster made about the photo and used their exact words. I don't know how you came to the conclusion you did but you seem determined to accuse regardless. Especially after ignoring a post in which I answered some very specific questions you asked and was very respectful of your differing opinion.
Also unsure where you think I've tried to tell you personally that it's wrong to buy sex?
You have called other poster's ideas on this thread "stupid" and been repeatedly condescending yet demand respect for your own points? I've answered your questions but I really don't need to put up with being accused so I'll stop engaging here.
Thankfully, other posters have contributed and explained the point of enthusiastic mutual consent better than I did, hopefully it's of some use to anyone reading.

... or leaving the bills spread out on top of the piano...

Christ!

LTB! - immediately!

I dunno maybe this is a little too simple but if it’s a moral violation to own a fellow human being (slavery), it must therefore also be a violation to rent one...

Great point. I've never thought about it like that, thanks

Isn’t that an argument for decriminalisation though? Making anything illegal which has a demand brings in criminals to control the supply Some people (not me) argue that making prostitution legal would allow for brothels run with labour laws, minimum wage, sick pay etc

If it's made legal then that means that should you or any woman (or man but we know that wont happen) become unemployed for any reason, you could be forced to apply for it as an actual legal job. If you refused you would be sanctioned. The ironic advert by antibles could and would become real.
I definitely dont want to go down that road

Muddying the issue?

Yep. If there's one thing supporters of the sex trade are practiced in it's selective misdirection.

The fact that prostitution can't be legalised as then no one could do it because of health and safety laws is also interesting.

The fact that decrim is always suggested by supporters is an admission that it's on no way the same as 'any other job'.

I've always assumed part of the reason decrim rather than legalization is suggested is that the relatively privileged people making that suggestion think they would make less money under legalization.

Dazedandconfusedpart2
I was agreeing with a comment another poster made about the photo and used their exact words. I don't know how you came to the conclusion you did but you seem determined to accuse regardless

Er no you chose to insert it in to a post replying to me - you quoted and bolded what I said. You made specific references to things I had said. I can't see the slightest relevance in inserting that screenshot other than an underhand way of insinuating it was something I might agree with.

I make no apologies whatsoever for saying that the argument that if something is too difficult to control it might as well be legalised is a stupid argument- because it is stupid.

I am not a scholar by any means, but I will say that my view on prostitution has hardened over the years. I have always believed that prostitution is wrong but I kind of accepted that it happens and so originally I favoured the legalisation model. Until I moved to a country that has adopted that model. The legalisation model was put in with the best of intentions, it allowed women to get access to healthcare and allowed them to access certain benefits. However we have seen a huge increase in trafficking (something that legalisation was to help stop) and and equally large increase in sexual assaults/rape, particularly in those areas with the super brothels. We have also had cases were unemployed women have been ordered by the state to work as prostitutes. Frankly anyone who thinks the tories would not try this in the UK if they could is utterly naieve.

This has all hardened me to the idea that prostitution is some sort of ordinary work. I am an ordinary working class woman who has been both a cleaner and a burger flipper, prostitution is in no way comparable to jobs like that. Prostitution is a dangerous industry, dangerous to the women and children in it and dangerous to women and children in general. It creates the idea that people are for sale, that is never good.

Given how high a percentage of the population work in cleaner or burger flipper type jobs the argument that those jobs are so clearly unacceptable that selling access to one's orifices would be preferable is rather loathsomely classist.

It feels like that. When people say things like I would rather my daughter be a prostitute than a burger flipper it does feel incredibly dismissive to me. Like I don't matter, or I am worth less because I came from a certain place/income level.

However, as this pandemic has shown us, some of the lowest paid, skilled or valued jobs in society have turned out to be essential.

And prostitution turns out not to be essential. Looks like the world still does turn even if a man doesn't have an orgasm.... Who knew?

Indeed. Turns out that keeping things clean actually is essential, while handing over money in exchange for the right to make use of a stranger's orifices is not.