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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is the moral difference between sex work and other forms of work?

346 replies

MooFeatures · 28/04/2020 19:09

Hear me out. I know the two are different, and that and that a person selling their body (indeed, their consent) for sex is morally different to other types of work which they wouldn’t engage in if that financial incentive (coercion?) wasn’t present. I’m not questioning this position... I’d just like to be able to fully articulate why the two are different. All explanations gratefully received Smile

OP posts:
TitianaTitsling · 03/05/2020 00:36

It's likely thread has moved on but when l was 15 got my first job at a cafe attached to local farm, so I would see this as work, not so sure that people giving me money to have sex would have been as acceptable, but why not if 'sex work is work'? Hey kids don't get a paper round at 12, youll get paid more for sex?

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 03/05/2020 00:37

I have no idea what your point is in linking that screenshot to what I said or is that just a nice bit of feministplaining to undermine or belittle an opinion you don't agree with?

I've just looked at that screenshot.
Bit Confused too as to where it links into anything that was said?
Looks tacked on randomly to your reply but in relation to nothing you said Confused

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 03/05/2020 00:40

Hey kids don't get a paper round at 12, youll get paid more for sex?

In what world is sex at 12 viable, FFS that's just sick

TitianaTitsling · 03/05/2020 00:44

lemonade exactly! It's grim and disgusting isn't it. That perfectly explains my point that sex work can NEVER just equal work! Thank you!

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 03/05/2020 01:05

That perfectly explains my point that sex work can NEVER just equal work! Thank you!

What? Nope, can you explain how 12 year olds on paper rounds have anything to do with sex as opposed to grown adults?!
"Jack it in, you'll get more for sex!"
WTF.
Just no.
Not even comparable - people in their 20s for example NOTHING like 12 year olds.

TitianaTitsling · 03/05/2020 01:27

You are purposefuly? missing my point. Of course l am not advocating jack in the paperround for sex work to bloody kids.

BeetrootRocks · 03/05/2020 01:46

Hold on

I'm a bit pissed

But

Have I just read someone going to the opera when they don't like it, because their partner does

To coerced sex/ prostitution?

Well this thread has taken a weird turn!

Agree with the PPs who said if it's a question of 'morality' ( which I'm going to read as going the right thing rather than any Bible type stuff),

Then the question is, is it 'moral' to pay for sex? Let's turn it on the men who create and support and defend and fund this trade.

Is it different to buying other goods and services?

I always remember the idea that usually a person who is experienced in something attracts more money. While an item that is not new is worth less.

The demand around what sort of women men prefer, in porn or when paying for sex, indicates that the women are goods rather than seen as a skilled supplier.

I await the comments about dommes etc but we all know, using our eyes and knowing life, that most men prefer young it very young women or girls.

quixote9 · 03/05/2020 06:57

I'm assuming this has been said already, so just adding my voice to that group.

It's morally wrong because you are buying a human being.

It is a slave trade.

The fact that most of the slaves these days are rentals rather than "kept women" (or boys) doesn't change the essential point that someone thinks it's okay for them to buy a body to use.

(Yes, in a totally different world you could have sex therapists who taught a skill. We don't live in that world. Sex and gender equality is a precondition for that. We're not even within Hubble telescope range of that world.)

The fact that some slaves are so steeped in their condition they think they see nothing wrong with it, that's their own business. You control your own body, you have the right to rent it out if you're confused enough to think you want that. That doesn't change the essential immorality of buying another human being to use.

Consent does not make it okay to turn a human being into a usable thing.

The only reason all this isn't instantly obvious to everybody is because the whole culture is steeped in the normality of slavery.

It's not. It's an atrocity.

TitianaTitsling · 03/05/2020 07:23

beetroot and Quixote thank you so much for your concise and informative posts. I usually get overly emotional and end up sounding ridiculous in trying to explain how l feel about this issue (hence my daft analogy in my previous post!)

  • it is absolutely morally wrong
-it is absolutely a slave trade.
HorseRadishFemish · 03/05/2020 07:40

... not even within Hubble telescope range of that world.

Love that.

BadApe · 03/05/2020 09:14

I’m pretty sure an actual 18th century African American slave, forced to be born, live, die, have children, who will then live and die, all under lock and key in the same plantation, dragged from their home, made to work 18 hour days when the harvest was due, physically branded with a mark burned into their skin, sometimes beaten to death or near death for making a small mistake, etc etc... would be pretty surprised at making a comparison between that and (in SOME cases) a single mum who, desperate to make ends meet, becomes a prostitute. I’m willing to bet @quixote9 isn’t black... I’m not saying prostitution is right, but it is absolutely not the same as being a slave, you can stop at any time and you can say no to anyone you don’t want to have sex with (as long as you aren’t being coerced/trafficked, which some are of course) but as a whole to say any kind of sex work or prostitution is slavery is disgusting and offensive in my opinion.

MandalaYogaTapestry · 03/05/2020 09:29

How is that even comparable? Seriously, such questions are insulting. Ask men if they would be happy to work as rent boys! They would not even dignify you with an answer of how it is different from an office clerk. Please just stop. Earning a living should not involve getting naked.

Pertella · 03/05/2020 09:45

What's your actual argument badape?

Slavery and did not start and end with the African slave trade. It's not inaccurate to describe the buying and selling of humans as slavery and the poster did not make a comparison to the African Slave trade so I'm not sure why you are trying to shut that argument down.

hoodathunkit · 03/05/2020 10:15

I’m pretty sure an actual 18th century African American slave, forced to be born, live, die, have children, who will then live and die, all under lock and key in the same plantation, dragged from their home, made to work 18 hour days when the harvest was due, physically branded with a mark burned into their skin, sometimes beaten to death or near death for making a small mistake, etc etc... would be pretty surprised at making a comparison between that and (in SOME cases) a single mum who, desperate to make ends meet, becomes a prostitute. I’m willing to bet @quixote9 isn’t black…

You are making a salient point using the transatlantic slave trade as an example. However it is not only about black and white, racism and the transatlantic slave trade.

Russia, Eastern Europe and the Balkans are sources for vast numbers of trafficked women into Western Europe and beyond. There are more people living as slaves today than have ever been enslaved in the history of the planet.

It is not unusual for vulnerable people to be enslaved but not to be classed as having been trafficked (and to thus access help that trafficked persons are eligible for) because elements of their treatment do not fit with the definitions stated in the Palermo Protocols.

Labour trafficking is a massive problem internationally and effects men and women. I mention this as it is often overlooked as people seem much more interested in sex trafficking ( a fact anti-slavery and anti-trafficking organisations occasionally comment on).

Sex trafficking and labour trafficking are appalling and unacceptable, obviously. In Africa and Asia mind boggling numbers of people are enslaved working in filthy, insanitary conditions down mines, in dangerous factories, on ships, in leather tanning factories, in all kinds of horrible, life threatening situations comparable with the transatlantic slave trade.

Then there are the huge numbers of women enslaved as domestic servants working for “madams” in the Middle East, many of these women are subjected to violence, including sexual violence, they cannot access their passports or escape, they live in a hellish situation. I have friends who have endured and survived this kind of life.

If anyone is interested in learning more about labour trafficking there is a heartbreaking documentary on the BBC that I would recommend highly. It includes an interview with a former soldier from the French Foreign Legion who was enslaved and who suffered terrible beatings and torture because, being a tough guy, he repeatedly stood up against his oppressors. His name is Mariusz Rycaczewksi and I cried my eyes out watching this documentary partly because I identified with him more than I have ever identified with sex trafficking survivors, even though I am a sex trafficking survivor. As complex human beings we identify with others for all kinds of reasons and for me, as someone who is still taking a metaphorical beating every day for stating up against abusers my heart went out to this man.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00085r7/panorama-the-hunt-for-britains-slave-gangs

to say any kind of sex work or prostitution is slavery is disgusting and offensive in my opinion.

As someone who was groomed, manipulated, threatened, tortured and trafficked and who subsequently, for some time, worked as a sex worker without a pimp, I agree with this 100%.

The problem I have with some of the feminist perspectives I read here is that they are very binary in their thinking with no room for nuance, which is interesting to me.

The accepted narrative seems to be that women who sell sex are either victims in need of rescue or bad women, traitors to their sex, who harm other women with their behaviour.

Why is the collective opinion on this that women are divided in a binary nature of good women / bad women?

This seems to me to be just a pseudo-feminist styling of the Madonna / whore split.

After I escaped from my pimp I worked as an escort for a while, maybe 2-3 years. I had no proper qualifications, had no way to pay the rent, buy necessities etc. so I worked as an escort until I was able to re-train. Does that make me a traitor to my sex?

What about the single mums who engage in transactional sex to keep the bailiff from the door? Are they traitors to their sex? Which side of the good woman / bad woman divide do they fall on? How about the student from a poor family who escorts so she can pay for an education she otherwise would not be able to afford? Where exactly do you draw the line?

It it possible, do you think, that sometimes some women who sell sex are neither victims needing to be saved or bad women who deserve expulsion from the sisterhood?

In the days following my escape I stayed at the home of a businessman who was the friend of another sex worker. He told me that he had paid for sex many times when he was in the Navy, but that he only had sex with women who demonstrably wanted to have sex with him and that on many occasions, having had long conversations with the women concerned, he had simply hugged them and paid for their company. It can be lonely in the Navy apparently, and, for this man at least, the company of women was more important than the sex. For the 2 weeks or so that I stayed at his flat he never touched me or made a move towards me. He was a lovely man and if I ever met him again I would love to thank him for the help me gave me, which undoubtably saved my life.

I am not claiming that this man is typical of all men who pay for sex. I have perused the Punternet and Punterlink websites and I appreciate that there are plenty of predatory, misogynist, entitled men paying for sex. I just believe, for all kinds of reasons, that things are much more nuanced and complex than some feminists believe.

As with so many difficult issues in life there are many shades of grey and things are very complicated. People are complicated. It always interests me when people split issues into binary categories as it usually, in my experience, indicates an unwillingness or inability to think.

And thinking is good. Obviously

BadApe · 03/05/2020 10:26

I should have been more clear:

Sex trafficking/any trafficking is slavery: Yes, absolutely. Holding any person against their will and forcing them to work for no pay is slavery. I have no problem with that. It must be stopped.

But the idea that any and all kind of sex work and prostitution is always slavery = offensive and wrong.

Antibles · 03/05/2020 11:25

he only had sex with women who demonstrably wanted to have sex with him

The things men tell themselves. Women who don't act right get beaten up by their pimp.

Justhadathought · 03/05/2020 11:34

But the idea that any and all kind of sex work and prostitution is always slavery = offensive and wrong

Why must it also be "offensive", though, as well as just plain wrong?
Have you, personally, ever been enslaved in the 'true' sense of the word that you implicate? If we are taking offence on behalf of a group with which we identify, rather than as a result of direct personal experience then that is identity politics.

Identity politics is a political approach and analysis based on people prioritising the concerns most relevant to their particular racial, religious, ethnic, sexual, social, cultural or other identity, and forming exclusive political alliances with others of this group, instead of engaging in more traditional, broad-based party politics. Those who prioritise their particular type of identity politics may promote their group's interests without regard for the interests of larger, more diverse political groups

Imnobody4 · 03/05/2020 11:36

Michael Sandel makes a distinction between a market economy and a market society. In the latter absolutely everything is for sale; babies, organs, blood, women, children. Everything that can be monetised will be.

Companies take out 'dead peasant life insurance policies' profiting from stranger's deaths. There are no moral arguments against the power of money, and of course that power is with those who have the money. Debt bondage, slavery, loan sharks, Rackman type landlords, gambling, pimps and punters, pornography. Those without money are just there to be exploited and used as any other commodity.

When so called charity workers can exploit the vulnerability of women in disaster zones we can clearly see the moral abyss men and libertarianism have fallen into.

'If women have to sell sex to men to survive, then women are dependent on men. If women are dependent on men they are not equal to men' quote from an African feminist.

I find it unbelievable that given the apalling state of women's rights globally some Western women seem to think prostitution is aspirational. Is this some psychological trick of owning your own abuse in order to diffuse its power. Prostitution is not an ethical form of rape. As far as I'm concerned buying the use of another human is abuse and comes from a place of contempt.

Justhadathought · 03/05/2020 11:37

But the idea that any and all kind of sex work and prostitution is always slavery = offensive and wrong

Or is it that you are offended on behalf of women who claim they engage in sex work out of free choice.....?

hoodathunkit · 03/05/2020 11:49

Have you, personally, ever been enslaved in the 'true' sense of the word that you implicate? If we are taking offence on behalf of a group with which we identify, rather than as a result of direct personal experience then that is identity politics.

I was in a situation where I sold sex and had to give all my money to a pimp. I was blackmailed and was told that my sisters would be pimped out if I escaped. I only attempted escape once my family had moved home and I was sure that if I tried to escape my sisters would be safe from exploitation. Following my first attempt I was tied up and tortured. Most of the torture was mental. For example he thretned to cut my breats and clitoris off. He held a knife to my body. He strangled me and my neck was bruised and the whites of my eyes were completely red with blood. I had little red spots around my eyes. I am lucky to be alive.

Was I enslaved? What do you think?

hoodathunkit · 03/05/2020 11:54

The things men tell themselves. Women who don't act right get beaten up by their pimp.

Of course men delude themselves. The sex industries are business constructed on foundations of illusion. As I have said before.

Having said that there is a huge difference between men who happily pay for sex from women who very obviously are desperate for money and men who pay for sex from women who appear to be enjoying themselves.

A fair amount of sex trafficking operations are brought to the attention of the police by punter who think they are paying for sex with a willing person but who notice that the woman is crying, bruised, etc.

hoodathunkit · 03/05/2020 12:02

I don't believe that sex work is healthy or inspirational

I just think that things are more nuanced than some posters here believe

I just struggle with agreeing with the collective beliefs when it jars with my personal experience of life.

I cannot lie about something this important.

I appreciate that my life experiences do not define the wider reality, however I think everyone's experiences, including mine, are important.

I am always happy to learn from others and revise my understanding of anything as new data becomes available

I just would like for there to be a more nuanced discussion about this issue.

Taking a break for a bit as feeling emotional

Antibles · 03/05/2020 12:02

What lemonade says. if sex for payment is even morally neutral then it should be fine as an entry on the careers websites for secondary school kids. With organisations offering careers advice and work experience opportunities and so on.

Imagine the ad for post-16s: Kids! Ever thought about a career in prostitution once you leave school? Opportunity to travel, earn money, develop life skills and meet a wide range of people. No qualifications needed at entry level so if you are thinking of choosing to work in the low skill sector this may be the job for you! We have a large number of local individuals willing to offer work experience on local industrial estates, brothels and cheap hotels, and who may also be able to offer additional opportunities in the illegal drugs trade and the porn industry. Cam work also available for extra exposure online! This career is exempt from tax and health and safety legislation. The NHS, social services and the police are available on an incident-by-incident basis to support your career development. So, fancy a grubby cock in your mouth for £20 and a punch in the face from your mentor if you don't accept twenty more of the same in an evening? Pop into the Careers Office today!

BadApe · 03/05/2020 12:14

Isn’t that an argument for decriminalisation though? Making anything illegal which has a demand brings in criminals to control the supply. Some people (not me) argue that making prostitution legal would allow for brothels run with labour laws, minimum wage, sick pay etc

Pertella · 03/05/2020 12:19

Having said that there is a huge difference between men who happily pay for sex from women who very obviously are desperate for money and men who pay for sex from women who appear to be enjoying themselves

What are the differences?